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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| If a person decides to fly a plane into a building, or strap dynamite to his chest or go to Iraq to kill American soldiers, I highly doubt that he will say (as his reason for doing so) something like 'Americans are "self-interested hypocrites". Those type of people (who would do such things) don't need much convincing in the first place. |
Obviously he wouldn't put it in those terms. But that's really just a more sophisticated/polite way of saying "Americans want to dominate the world, they are just trying to trick us when they say they care about justice and democracy." Or "Americans are evil warmongerers who want to kill Muslims." Which I would wager is pretty much exactly what al Qaida recruiters are saying. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Quote:
2) For the most part Al Qaida aren't American citizens. Why does the US owe them the same rights as American citizens?
Joo, I'm shocked that you would even ask this question. The right to be told what you are accused of, the right to face your accuser in open court, the right to a speedy and fair trial are not AMERICAN rights, they are human rights, applicable to everyone all the time. If you can exempt certain people under your legal jurisdiction at any time of your choosing, then those rights are not rights, they are only privileges which can be revoked at any time.
Please think about your position on this. |
First of all, let me make these positions clear.
1)I do not support the further detention of the suspects at Gitmo without them receiving some sort of review and fair trial.
2)Abu Ghraib was horrible and wrong on every level and not enough is being done to make sure it won't happen again.
3)Abu Ghraib is happening again, as it did recently in Afghanistan, and it's sad when government agents are torturing instead of actually interrogating.
4)Much more should be done to assure that individual agents of the government not abuse their position, I think the FBI should be given oversight over military detentions, and they should be able to infiltrate all the way to the top.
5) Extradition is wrong and should stop immediately.
Alright, I want to say that nobody has responded adequately to Joo's concern that there is a real problem prosecuting some of these members of Al Qaeda. I think I respect the principles of human rights, but there truly is a crisis because I don't know how you can properly defend against an internationaol NGO who would like to cause mass destruction to the civilian population of an open and liberal society. There must be a better way than having to put them in an open trial. I certainly don't believe these stateless individuals deserve a jury of their peers, because these stateless individuals have only themselves as real peers. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:39 am Post subject: |
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How does anyone know whether or not they really are members of Al-quaida (sp? I still don't know how to spell it...doh)
Half of these guys could be poor saps who just happened to be in the wrong place when the shite hit the fan......... that's the whole point of why they need some access to legal help.
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000946565
Amnesty Int'l Director Responds to President Bush--in Letter to Editor
By E&P Staff
Published: June 04, 2005 11:00 AM ET
NEW YORK In a letter to the editor published Saturday in The New York Times, William F. Schulz, executive director of Amnesty International, responded to President Bush's widely-published charge that the group's charges of wide human rights abuses in the war on terror were "absurd." Schulz called the charge "ironic."
If Amnesty's reports are so "absurd," Schulz asked, "why did the administration repeatedly cite our findings about Saddam Hussein before the Iraq war? Why does it welcome our criticisms of Cuba, China and North Korea? And why does it cite our research in its own annual human rights reports?
"No amount of spin can erase the myriad human rights abuses committed by United States officials in the 'war on terror.' The United States cannot simultaneously claim that it 'promotes freedom around the world' while detaining tens of thousands at Guantánamo Bay, Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan and in Iraq and other locations without charge or trial and allowing those civilian and military officials responsible for orchestrating a systematic policy of torture to escape accountability.
"Instead of attacking us, President Bush should insist upon a truly thorough, independent investigation of those who tried to circumvent global prohibitions on torture, and he should open all detention centers to scrutiny by independent human rights groups. Only then will the world be able to judge whether it is Amnesty International or the president whose perspective deserves to be called 'absurd.'"
The letter was written before the Pentagon acknowledged abuse of the Koran at Guantanomo on Friday night. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| what is a mid easterner doing in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban? |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if someone is guilty....... he's guilty.
But how do we know who is guilty and who isn't?
This whole business of assumption of guilt without any legal recourse is what's so scary here.
What about that cab driver in Iraq that was beaten to death, even the guards at the prison said they figured he was innocent?
Suppose your brother, father, cousin or uncle had been rounded up just because they had been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
What would you be saying then?
What about this guy or the many others like him?
One man claimed he was working with the Americans and the U.S.-backed Northern Alliance.
"I was working with you and now I am here, and I see those people here that I helped capture in Afghanistan," said the purported former commander, adding he fears if he's ever released to his country he will be killed because of information he has provided to the Americans.
Stories of false accusations abound. One prisoner said he was in Afghanistan to buy heroin so he could sell it to open a nightclub in Europe, another said he was a goat herder - while others said they offered false confessions to their captors to make alleged abuse stop.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=2837
Notice that the story was taken from the Associated Press, that's in case you have a problem with it coming from Michael Moore's site.
This is the thanks he gets for helping out America? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
Well, if someone is guilty....... he's guilty.
But how do we know who is guilty and who isn't?
This whole business of assumption of guilt without any legal recourse is what's so scary here.
What about that cab driver in Iraq that was beaten to death, even the guards at the prison said they figured he was innocent?
Suppose your brother, father, cousin or uncle had been rounded up just because they had been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
What would you be saying then?
What about this guy or the many others like him?
One man claimed he was working with the Americans and the U.S.-backed Northern Alliance.
"I was working with you and now I am here, and I see those people here that I helped capture in Afghanistan," said the purported former commander, adding he fears if he's ever released to his country he will be killed because of information he has provided to the Americans.
Stories of false accusations abound. One prisoner said he was in Afghanistan to buy heroin so he could sell it to open a nightclub in Europe, another said he was a goat herder - while others said they offered false confessions to their captors to make alleged abuse stop.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=2837
Notice that the story was taken from the Associated Press, that's in case you have a problem with it coming from Michael Moore's site.
This is the thanks he gets for helping out America? |
why would a mid easterner be fighting in Afghanistan for the the Taliban?
The US does need to make changes on the way some things are done and give the prisoners civilian review of their case - but they should not get full POW status , nor not should they enjoy the right not to cooperate. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| If a person decides to fly a plane into a building, or strap dynamite to his chest or go to Iraq to kill American soldiers, I highly doubt that he will say (as his reason for doing so) something like 'Americans are "self-interested hypocrites". Those type of people (who would do such things) don't need much convincing in the first place. |
Obviously he wouldn't put it in those terms. But that's really just a more sophisticated/polite way of saying "Americans want to dominate the world, they are just trying to trick us when they say they care about justice and democracy." Or "Americans are evil warmongerers who want to kill Muslims." Which I would wager is pretty much exactly what al Qaida recruiters are saying. |
True, but what I was attempting to point out that it is a pretty long way for someone who wasn't angry at the U.S. before to flying airplanes into buildings simply because he feels that the U.S. is being hypocritial. "Americans are self-interested hyprocrites" is also a far less emotionally charged (and far less serious) phrase than "Americans are evil warmongers who want to kill Muslims". One accuses Americans of a character flaw, the other accuses them of attempting genocide. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
Well, if someone is guilty....... he's guilty.
But how do we know who is guilty and who isn't?
This whole business of assumption of guilt without any legal recourse is what's so scary here.
What about that cab driver in Iraq that was beaten to death, even the guards at the prison said they figured he was innocent?
Suppose your brother, father, cousin or uncle had been rounded up just because they had been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
What would you be saying then?
What about this guy or the many others like him?
One man claimed he was working with the Americans and the U.S.-backed Northern Alliance.
"I was working with you and now I am here, and I see those people here that I helped capture in Afghanistan," said the purported former commander, adding he fears if he's ever released to his country he will be killed because of information he has provided to the Americans.
Stories of false accusations abound. One prisoner said he was in Afghanistan to buy heroin so he could sell it to open a nightclub in Europe, another said he was a goat herder - while others said they offered false confessions to their captors to make alleged abuse stop.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=2837
Notice that the story was taken from the Associated Press, that's in case you have a problem with it coming from Michael Moore's site.
This is the thanks he gets for helping out America? |
why would a mid easterner be fighting in Afghanistan for the the Taliban?
The US does need to make changes on the way some things are done and give the prisoners civilian review of their case - but they should not get full POW status , nor not should they enjoy the right not to cooperate. |
Who said he was fighting for the taliban? Where are you getting your information?
He may have been doing legitimate intelligence gathering work for the CIA or some other US gov
agency.
He also may have been doing some research for oil companies. I suppose there are lots of legitimate reasons why a mid-easterner would have been in Afghanistan. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Who said he was fighting for the taliban? Where are you getting your information? |
Well most if not all of them there were doing just that
| Quote: |
He may have been doing legitimate intelligence gathering work for the CIA or some other US gov
agency. |
Uh ok, why would the US send a mideasterner to Afghanistan?
| Quote: |
| He also may have been doing some research for oil companies. I suppose there are lots of legitimate reasons why a mid-easterner would have been in Afghanistan. |
Really why would they have been fightting for the Taliban then? |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:39 am Post subject: |
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For the "people" locked up at Gitmo, kill 'em all. If they are innocent, they will receive their reward in heaven. If they are guilty, good riddence. As for the Abu Ghariab people: having your picture taken in your underwear isn't torture, having your fingernails pulled out is. Understand?
PS: I don't like Muslims and would just as soon shoot one as break wind. We are at war with their culture--NO PRISONERS. |
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bourquetheman
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| W.T.Carl wrote: |
For the "people" locked up at Gitmo, kill 'em all. If they are innocent, they will receive their reward in heaven. If they are guilty, good riddence. As for the Abu Ghariab people: having your picture taken in your underwear isn't torture, having your fingernails pulled out is. Understand?
PS: I don't like Muslims and would just as soon shoot one as break wind. We are at war with their culture--NO PRISONERS. |
This is the most disgusting, vile, and hateful post I think I've seen here. Congratulations you win the award for the worst post on Daves.  |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| I second that. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Quote: |
Who said he was fighting for the taliban? Where are you getting your information? |
Well most if not all of them there were doing just that |
I'm curious where you're getting your information also.
This was news over a week ago. I guess you were busy
Bounties ranged from $3,000 to $25,000, the detainees testified during military tribunals, according to transcripts the U.S. government gave The Associated Press to comply with a Freedom of Information lawsuit.
A former CIA intelligence officer who helped lead the search for Osama bin Laden told AP the accounts sounded legitimate because U.S. allies regularly got money to help catch Taliban and al-Qaida fighters.
I get my info from the Associated Press ... where do you get yours? How accurate has Cheney and the White House Press Secretary been about most things going on over there?
W.T.Carl
| Quote: |
| As for the Abu Ghariab people: having your picture taken in your underwear isn't torture |
You'll be happy to know that the abuse at Abu Ghrain included homicide. You'll probably be even happier to learn that women and kids were incarcerated and that plenty of allegations have been made to indicate abuse performed upon them, including rape.
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| We are at war with their culture |
I guess this is what culture war looks like, eh? We turn ourselves into something that looks 7 times as monstrous as anything we have said about them.
You, sir, are not an American. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:16 am Post subject: ... |
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| This is the most disgusting, vile, and hateful post I think I've seen here. Congratulations you win the award for the worst post on Daves. |
Sorry, but I disagree.
The winner is the pro-wrestling economist who suggested "The Middle East be nuked and paved over as one big parking lot."
But the "Kill them all" argument does deserve 2nd. |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you. We are at war with Islam. We haven't or at least we haven't for the last several hundred years tried to force our religion on those people. And yet we see holy places of ours and other religions desecrated. Why is the "Dome of the Rock" on the foundations of Solomon's Temple? Why is Saint Sophia in Constantinople now a mosque? Who blew up the two buddhas in Afghanistan? How many Hindu Shrines have been burned and mosques erected in their place? How have the Bahai's of Iran fared under Islam? Do you think that if these scum had taken Rome that St. Pauls would still be a church? And now we see bombings in a truely peaceful place called Thailand. Again, we are at war. Are you traitors or mearly "useful idiots"? The only way to trust a muslim is to put your trust in your bayonet and your bayonet in the muslim. |
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