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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
I second Grotto's comments about some Korean bosses who will screw you over and then think they have done nothing wrong.
My wanjong (definately not nim) owed me 2 months wages + severance and was actully surprised when I told him I was not going to sign on for another year of this crap. 
Really, some of these guys have no clue what they are doing.
Sure, he saves money in the short term, but he's definately going to have trouble finding another teacher.
Don't work for Hyundae Interpretation/ language institute in Gim hae if you want to get paid. |
Did you get your money ultimately then? Waving photocopied lists of all the students parents phone numbers in his face and threatening to start calling them might have worked. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Badmojo wrote: |
I always had the impression that Koreans are going to do what they want. At the end of the day, contract notwithstanding, what we think notwithstanding, they're going to do what they feel is best.
Severence pay? No, I don't feel like paying you. Insert excuse here.
Your father died? Be back here in under a week.
Today I've decided you're going to work illegally at another school. What, you have a problem with that?
I'm sorry, you're gone next week, I don't care if the contract says I have to give you 30 days. Goodbye.
I don't know why there's such a bad record in this country, but there is.
Look, there are good schools and bad schools, but regardless, we're probably always going to end up on the short end of the stick here. |
The ESL industry here can be very stressful--for all that stress, make it worthwhile-- save as much money here as you can. |
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TJ
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:24 am Post subject: There's bad and there's good |
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Fortunately none of my family died while I was in Korea. However, I did need to go home to Australia a few years ago for a medical checkup. I did not feel that Korean doctors had expertise in that field. Neither was I prepared to pay the exhorbitant fees at a western hospital in Seoul.
The director of the hagwan I was teaching in at the time was fantastic. I took a week off and he had no problems with that. In fact his only concern seemed to be my health.
He was one of the really nice hagwan owners that we don't always hear about. I consider my self lucky to have worked for him.
By the way, it was all a false alarm. My health problems were minor but it's better to be safe than sorry. |
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pest2
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Is It Time To Leave Korea? |
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| rapier wrote: |
the realisation has been a long time coming here for me, but ultimately I have to say: do not take what a Korean says, seriously. Words are cheap to them and actually mean very little. They will agree with you on something for the sake of not wanting to offend you, meanwhile they intend to do the exact opposite.
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Yes, I have to say this insight is right-on. Often, and especially with new-comers, conflicts arise as a result of this cultural difference. Koreans assume that people are not true to thier words and the committments made by those words. So, when they ask you something and you say, "yes, I will do that" or "no, I have no idea why X bad thing happened," it is pretty much meaningless to them. So, naturally when a westerner who isnt aware of this phenomena experiences a Korean co-worker or boss questioning the validity of his or her words, it comes across as that co-worker or boss questioning thier trust-worthiness and honesty.
Likewise, of course, Korean management might "promise" something to an employee and then later, "forget." Or maybe they talk about some upcoming improvement and forget to mention some of the negative consequences that must follow (such as when the school is being expanded but as a result you must also work more hours).
But, whereas in Korea lying is tolerated like speaking with a drawl, in western culture, lying is like the 8th- deadly sin. Didn't your mother spank you all (western readers only) for lying about something? Didn't we all see that famous commercial for the musical performance, "cats" that goes, "if you tell one lie, it leads to another..."
So, this cultural difference can lead to some serious ill-sentiment and confidence/trust issues in Korean-western offices. So much so that it is common for people to pack up and leave home to tell thier family and friends they left because Koreans are a bunch of liars (which actually isnt so far from the truth if you think about it only from the perspective of your own culture if you're western).
Also, and because of the same Korean value of "preserving harmony with spoken moderation" that seems to cause most of that lying, there exists a sort of 'code' among Koreans... a way by which they can read between the lines of bullshit they speak to one another to discover the truth contained therein. For example, in my old office, if you asked for something they didnt want to procure like a ride to the dentist office or if they were upset with somebody for some reason, they would all leave the area where that person was sitting (and then say bad things about that person) as a 'sign'.... there are many 'signs,' and to be honest I haven't learned most of them.. but it's pretty amazing to see... |
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pest2
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Is It Time To Leave Korea? |
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| pest2 wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
the realisation has been a long time coming here for me, but ultimately I have to say: do not take what a Korean says, seriously. Words are cheap to them and actually mean very little. They will agree with you on something for the sake of not wanting to offend you, meanwhile they intend to do the exact opposite.
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Yes, I have to say this insight is right-on. Often, and especially with new-comers, conflicts arise as a result of this cultural difference. Koreans assume that people are not true to thier words and the committments made by those words. So, when they ask you something and you say, "yes, I will do that" or "no, I have no idea why X bad thing happened," it is pretty much meaningless to them. So, naturally when a westerner who isnt aware of this phenomena experiences a Korean co-worker or boss questioning the validity of his or her words, it comes across as that co-worker or boss questioning thier trust-worthiness and honesty.
Likewise, of course, Korean management might "promise" something to an employee and then later, "forget." Or maybe they talk about some upcoming improvement and forget to mention some of the negative consequences that must follow (such as when the school is being expanded but as a result you must also work more hours).
But, whereas in Korea lying is tolerated like speaking with a drawl, in western culture, lying is like the 8th- deadly sin. Didn't your mother spank you all (western readers only) for lying about something? Didn't we all see that famous commercial for the musical performance, "cats" that goes, "if you tell one lie, it leads to another..."
So, this cultural difference can lead to some serious ill-sentiment and confidence/trust issues in Korean-western offices. So much so that it is common for people to pack up and leave home to tell thier family and friends they left because Koreans are a bunch of liars (which actually isnt so far from the truth if you think about it only from the perspective of your own culture if you're western).
Also, and because of the same Korean value of "preserving harmony with spoken moderation" that seems to cause most of that lying, there exists a sort of 'code' among Koreans... a way by which they can read between the lines of *beep* they speak to one another to discover the truth contained therein. For example, in my old office, if you asked for something they didnt want to procure like a ride to the dentist office or if they were upset with somebody for some reason, they would all leave the area where that person was sitting (and then say bad things about that person) as a 'sign'.... there are many 'signs,' and to be honest I haven't learned most of them.. do i want to?...but it's pretty amazing to see... |
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Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Is It Time To Leave Korea? |
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| pest2 wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
do not take what a Korean says, seriously. Words are cheap to them and actually mean very little.
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Yes, I have to say this insight is right-on. ... |
This is not very insightful at all, actually. If it were altered to "don't take what the typical Korean hagwon boss says seriously" then it might have some meaning, although it still wouldn't be particularly insightful as it is something that many or all of us could have come up with after a few months of working for one.
Y'know, if someone were to post "Don't take those Africans seriously, you can't trust a word they say" you would see an enraged community leaping to the defense of the unfairly maligned blacks. But, because this is Dave's, and because Korean-hating is encouraged here, it's a legitimate--even INSIGHTFUL--complaint. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Is It Time To Leave Korea? |
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| Corporal wrote: |
| pest2 wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
do not take what a Korean says, seriously. Words are cheap to them and actually mean very little.
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Yes, I have to say this insight is right-on. ... |
This is not very insightful at all, actually. If it were altered to "don't take what the typical Korean hagwon boss says seriously" then it might have some meaning, although it still wouldn't be particularly insightful as it is something that many or all of us could have come up with after a few months of working for one.
Y'know, if someone were to post "Don't take those Africans seriously, you can't trust a word they say" you would see an enraged community leaping to the defense of the unfairly maligned blacks. But, because this is Dave's, and because Korean-hating is encouraged here, it's a legitimate--even INSIGHTFUL--complaint. |
Well, I don't know if that is relevant. To say 'X' about blacks implies a genetic or racial cause, not a cultural one. Koreans aren't a race in and of themselves but members of a race that comprises many other cultures. Blacks comprise a diverse range of nationalities, cultures, histories etc. When we speak of Koreans, generally, I think people are referring to Koreans residing in Korea.
The proper comparison is if one was in Somalia and said 'X' about Somalians. I have never muttered a word about 'those Asians' and many about 'these Koreans'.
I think that the most important fact is that Koreans are individually different from each other, but collectively different from us. This is why it is so difficult for us to understand each others unique experiences here. We experience a culture collectively different from our own, as presented by unique individuals and their own perspective on their own culture and its' norms etc.
We are at times frustrated with this redneck, xenophobic culture that we are all trying to navigate with smiles on our face. It is only normal that at times we get frustrated and vent. I think that Dave's serves a very useful function in allowing us a collective place to gather and share our thoughts, be they PC or not. And when we are being ignorant, as we at times all are, we ought to be slapped back into place.
But I respect your opinion. I do at times make wildly generalized statements about Korea and this culture (redneck comes to mind)...
(And allow me a preemptive strike here, if I were in a redneck area of the West I would moan about that too.) |
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pegpig
Joined: 10 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Is It Time To Leave Korea? |
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| BJWD wrote: |
(And allow me a preemptive strike here, if I were in a redneck area of the West I would moan about that too.) |
Exactly. If we were a bunch of Asian rocket scientists working in Kentucky don't you think we would be bitsin about the locals.
Heck, this is where we're living at the moment right. I get enough positive things about Korea from the street and the missus. I need to balance it out a little. People like the apologists aren't helping me any.
If you want to discuss the Africans you can always go to the Africa forum. I bet that place is rockin'. |
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pegpig
Joined: 10 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Is It Time To Leave Korea? |
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| rapier wrote: |
the realisation has been a long time coming here for me, but ultimately I have to say: do not take what a Korean says, seriously. Words are cheap to them and actually mean very little. They will agree with you on something for the sake of not wanting to offend you, meanwhile they intend to do the exact opposite. I've gotten into a lot of trouble and wasted time by taking them literally. In the west, if you say something once, its accepted as final. In Korea, everything is ironed out by a gradual process of repeated persistence, just to be sure. |
So true. I remember my first Korean recruiter in Canada - yeah, I know. He tells me that what is spoken is more important in Korea than what is written down. If a Korean tells you something you can take that to the bank. Yeah right. Try the opposite. What's spoken isn't worth the air that was used. What's written? Maybe, if you're lucky. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Is It Time To Leave Korea? |
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| pegpig wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
the realisation has been a long time coming here for me, but ultimately I have to say: do not take what a Korean says, seriously. Words are cheap to them and actually mean very little. They will agree with you on something for the sake of not wanting to offend you, meanwhile they intend to do the exact opposite. I've gotten into a lot of trouble and wasted time by taking them literally. In the west, if you say something once, its accepted as final. In Korea, everything is ironed out by a gradual process of repeated persistence, just to be sure. |
So true. I remember my first Korean recruiter in Canada - yeah, I know. He tells me that what is spoken is more important in Korea than what is written down. If a Korean tells you something you can take that to the bank. Yeah right. Try the opposite. What's spoken isn't worth the air that was used. What's written? Maybe, if you're lucky. |
Really- i wish i'd sensed it more at the beginning. For example I bought a camera a month or two back, and the storekeeper said I should go out to dinner woith him and his staff. But then he seems amaazed and awkward that I not only accept, but mention it again the next time I go in the shop.
or: A girl flirts with me constantly. when i finally ask her out, she suddenly becomes all coy and says no. I say ok then, please yourself and forget about her. weeks later she is back flirting and seems a bit dissapointed that I actually took her at her word right off.
Another time someone gives me their card and says to call them, nicely and politely. They seem amazed that I actually do... and so on...
I talked about it with a co-worker once, she said "don't believe what people say here, unless thay say it several times. They're trying to be polite". |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:33 am Post subject: |
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BJWD wrote:
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| Koreans aren't a race in and of themselves but members of a race that comprises many other cultures. |
I nominate this for quote of the year 
Buddy it aint called the hermit Kingdom for nothin!
Korea has one culture and one culture only, Korean. They are quite singular in that.
One of the problems is that Koreans view each other as family....any foreigner is considered an outsider regardless of what country they come from and as such are treated accordingly! |
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buymybook
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Location: Telluride
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
| Plume D'ella Plumeria wrote: |
"I assume you mean all or most Koreans."
Let me just clarify that for you Ms. 'tude. I mean a good many Koreans who "are calling the shots" to quote from the Guru in one of his responses to CLG's post. You might just wish to go back and re-read that post and its responses, yours included.
My brush is no bigger than anyone else's and considerably smaller than many. Like you, I have been helped on several occasions by kind-hearted Koreans. Those kind-hearted Koreans, however, are generally not the folk in charge of things. |
Yes, I know there can be problems, but there are also many "people who are calling the shots" who are kind and helpful. I've met both. I've also met both where I come from. The problem here is that the disagreements and conflicts are hard to sort out because the culture is different and most of us don't have the necessary language skills to navigate and negotiate.
I've been surprised at times when a percieved insult or slight has turned out to be a clear cultural misunderstanding.
In the case of CLG, her boss was being an ass. No one has had one of those anywhere but Korea? The hypocrisy is when there is a family emergency, and someone who otherwise would claim that family is everything shows no understanding or compassion. I've seen that here. I have also seen the opposite.
I was and am simply trying to say that we all need to be careful to not over-generalize. It hurts when it is done to us (some waygooks behave badly so we all fall under suspicion) and it is equally bad when we do it. |
Was it somone related to your Korean girlfriend/wife who gave/borrowed you money. Did they give it to you or lend it to you???
I don't know what white picket fence you're sitting on but I'd like to know how long you knew this person that gave/lend you money and if you still keep in contact with em? Give em enough time and they will somehow F*** you in the end.
If you're smart you have stayed far away from the Korean who gave you something because they will eventually try/expect to get it back from you one way or other. Open your eyes and ears, then face reality! If you are married to a Korean or are/part Korean then your opinion don't count. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:16 am Post subject: |
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Well,
I have to side with Corp on this one. The double standard here is blatant. I am even amazed at the linguistic acrobatics that have gone on in this thread to justify judging Koreans in one bloc or to excuse comments that, if made about any other group of people would have been considered racist.
It is astounding how so many of us are quite confortable making racist comments and applying the basest form of prejudice to Koreans and then get all up and about when some minor slight is thrown upon "us" the westerner group. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Homer you are an apologist...not a bad word but you do have to admit that Korean HOGWAN owners dont have a good track record.
Korea is also a very insular culture. Korean people have little experience dealing with Westerners. Koreans dont have the same rules that Westerners do.
Things people from Western culture view as sacred are often blatantly ignored by Koreans. Keeping ones word, being honest and forthright.(dont take this statement the wrong way...Koreans are very honest in most ways but not when it comes to contracts, and keeping ones word...especially when dealing with a foreigner!)Driving rules, parking rules. Even take a look at how Koreans view physical fighting...doesnt matter who starts it...its the winner who is at fault. 
Racist? Or observations? Slap whatever label you want on the above statements but they are all true! |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Korean HOGWAN owners dont have a good track record. |
Agreed that many do have a bad track record.
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| Things people from Western culture view as sacred are often blatantly ignored by Koreans. |
That is a big problem as because it is sacred to a westenerd it does not follow that it should be sacred to everyone else on the planet.
Also you simplify and generalize the adherence of westerners to these positive values when in reality moos only cite these values when it suits them. |
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