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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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 Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I teach university students and quite often have open discussion classes on controversial topics. However, I am careful to tease out both sides of the argument, often playing devil's advocate and arguing against what students say to give balance to the debate. I'll do it in a subtle way, adding "fair enough, but some people think.......". I'm also careful to let students know that my opinions, if given, are just that, my opinions and also let them know that they should feel free to give theirs. I think the OP should be careful about introducing any political agenda and just give the students what they need to learn and develop their own opinions. |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| I teach university students and quite often have open discussion classes on controversial topics. However, I am careful to tease out both sides of the argument, often playing devil's advocate and arguing against what students say to give balance to the debate. I'll do it in a subtle way, adding "fair enough, but some people think.......". I'm also careful to let students know that my opinions, if given, are just that, my opinions and also let them know that they should feel free to give theirs. I think the OP should be careful about introducing any political agenda and just give the students what they need to learn and develop their own opinions. |
You often play devil's advocate? Even when you disagree with what you are saying?
It's a lot easier to talk about the other point of view if students say something like black people are all criminals, than it is if they say that Korean women shoud have equal rights with men or that marijuana should be legalized. (Assuming, of couse, that you don't think that blacks are criminals and that Korean women shouldn't have equal rights with men or that pot should stay illegal.)
I'm not saying that I've never expressed opinions in class, but I generally regret when I do because it's taking away from student's talking time.
I have friends who think a good way to generate conversation is to say something outrageous - Tokto should belong to Japan, for instance. Just because students are comfortable disagreeing with the teacher doesn't mean that they won't be angry about the statement. And, while it might get some students talking, I have seen it alienate others who aren't comfortable disagreeing with teachers.
Isn't it much better to have a meaningful lesson about something like travel where students plan iteneraries, learn how to buy tickets, express opinions about where to go, and and talk about what to do when they get there? Minimal teacher talking time setting the task and then students talk and teacher observes. Easy and interesting. |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
I'm of the opinion that it's okay to 'preach' about an issue as long as it's not connected to any group of any kind. I can tell my students or anyone whatever I feel about an issue because the thought is all my own and I can take responsibility for it, but to use my eloquence to convince a student of a cause and then send them off to a group to do the rest is dangerous. For all I know I could have understood them wrong, made them out to be better than they are, or I could just be one of those people who can convince anyone of anything.
In short, tell people your 100% original ideas, and don't pretend that the dogma of any particular group is something you thought up yourself. |
It's okay to preach if you're in church, or in a bar, or on Speaker's Corner whether you're connected to a group or not. If you're in class, you should be teaching.
Give an example of one or two of your '100% original ideas'. I can't believe that your opinions haven't been affected by outside influences. If you're saying that you shouldn't try to explain things that you don't understand, I agree. But it's okay to respond to students questions. If you don't know what a harridan is, tell the student; if you think that all Korean women are harridans, keep it to yourself in the classroom. |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| I'm of the opinion that it's okay to 'preach' about an issue as long as it's not connected to any group of any kind. I can tell my students or anyone whatever I feel about an issue because the thought is all my own and I can take responsibility for it, but to use my eloquence to |
I just hope you're refunding their tuition for the portion of class time that you wasted NOT teaching them English.
It is not your job to mold them into fine well-rounded young men and women -- it is your job to teach them a language, because that's what they want to learn and that's why they pay you! Nobody wants some service provider to try and convince them that their beliefs are wrong. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Time wasted? I'm not a teacher, sorry.
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| If you're saying that you shouldn't try to explain things that you don't understand, I agree. |
Then we agree.
One thing that I feel strongly about that was 100% my own idea is that Korea needs a space agency. There are peole who agree with me here and there of course, but there's no group out there promoting it. Actually if there was a group promoting it they'd probably be wrong because most of them want to see a space agency for the sake of putting their countrymen into space and that's bloody expensive.
When talking about space with people I know it's not "you are wrong and you need a space agency" but rather "space is awesome, here's why, and here's why Korea can make one too and here's why it's best to concentrate on unmanned probes because it's so much easier to get good results for far less money than sending people up". Well, that's not exactly prosletyzing, is it? That's why 'preach' was put in quotes above. If I feel I have something to share that is completely new, I share it. If I know it's a subject that's been debated before I'm not even interested.
But then again I'm not a teacher. Depends on the class. If it's a free-talking class you can bring this up; if it's a strict grammar class then of course not.
It's not a 100% zany original idea like you might be wanting, but then again I was raised on Earth like everybody else (dammit) and there are limits to what I can imagine. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| gypsyfish wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
| I teach university students and quite often have open discussion classes on controversial topics. However, I am careful to tease out both sides of the argument, often playing devil's advocate and arguing against what students say to give balance to the debate. I'll do it in a subtle way, adding "fair enough, but some people think.......". I'm also careful to let students know that my opinions, if given, are just that, my opinions and also let them know that they should feel free to give theirs. I think the OP should be careful about introducing any political agenda and just give the students what they need to learn and develop their own opinions. |
You often play devil's advocate? Even when you disagree with what you are saying?
It's a lot easier to talk about the other point of view if students say something like black people are all criminals, than it is if they say that Korean women shoud have equal rights with men or that marijuana should be legalized. (Assuming, of couse, that you don't think that blacks are criminals and that Korean women shouldn't have equal rights with men or that pot should stay illegal.)
I'm not saying that I've never expressed opinions in class, but I generally regret when I do because it's taking away from student's talking time.
I have friends who think a good way to generate conversation is to say something outrageous - Tokto should belong to Japan, for instance. Just because students are comfortable disagreeing with the teacher doesn't mean that they won't be angry about the statement. And, while it might get some students talking, I have seen it alienate others who aren't comfortable disagreeing with teachers.
Isn't it much better to have a meaningful lesson about something like travel where students plan iteneraries, learn how to buy tickets, express opinions about where to go, and and talk about what to do when they get there? Minimal teacher talking time setting the task and then students talk and teacher observes. Easy and interesting. |
Yes, I often introduce another side of an argument, especially when everyone agrees (as is the wont of Korean students). Not only do I do that, I regularly make arguments that I don't agree with in RL. Its part of being a good teacher, being able to divorce yourself from your opinions when you have to. My students have never made an argument that blacks are criminals, so I have not (and in that instance would not) make the counter argument. Finally, just interested to know why you italicized the word often in your quote. Trying to twist my words or something? |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| gypsyfish wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
| I teach university students and quite often have open discussion classes on controversial topics. However, I am careful to tease out both sides of the argument, often playing devil's advocate and arguing against what students say to give balance to the debate. I'll do it in a subtle way, adding "fair enough, but some people think.......". I'm also careful to let students know that my opinions, if given, are just that, my opinions and also let them know that they should feel free to give theirs. I think the OP should be careful about introducing any political agenda and just give the students what they need to learn and develop their own opinions. |
You often play devil's advocate? Even when you disagree with what you are saying?
It's a lot easier to talk about the other point of view if students say something like black people are all criminals, than it is if they say that Korean women shoud have equal rights with men or that marijuana should be legalized. (Assuming, of couse, that you don't think that blacks are criminals and that Korean women shouldn't have equal rights with men or that pot should stay illegal.)
I'm not saying that I've never expressed opinions in class, but I generally regret when I do because it's taking away from student's talking time.
I have friends who think a good way to generate conversation is to say something outrageous - Tokto should belong to Japan, for instance. Just because students are comfortable disagreeing with the teacher doesn't mean that they won't be angry about the statement. And, while it might get some students talking, I have seen it alienate others who aren't comfortable disagreeing with teachers.
Isn't it much better to have a meaningful lesson about something like travel where students plan iteneraries, learn how to buy tickets, express opinions about where to go, and and talk about what to do when they get there? Minimal teacher talking time setting the task and then students talk and teacher observes. Easy and interesting. |
Yes, I often introduce another side of an argument, especially when everyone agrees (as is the wont of Korean students). Not only do I do that, I regularly make arguments that I don't agree with in RL. Its part of being a good teacher, being able to divorce yourself from your opinions when you have to. My students have never made an argument that blacks are criminals, so I have not (and in that instance would not) make the counter argument. Finally, just interested to know why you italicized the word often in your quote. Trying to twist my words or something? |
I quoted what you said. How is that twisting your words? I italicized 'often' for emphasis. Sorry you misunderstood. (Not unlike a student misunderstanding your position when you express an opinion not yours to get them thinking, eh?)
Aren't you being a little hypocritical by making some arguments you don't agree with but not always doing so when it would generate discussion with your students?
Being a good teacher is giving students practical lessons. If you're teaching the debate club, divide them into two groups and make them come up with the arguments. Don't tell them. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Ummmh, with all due respect, you are not in my classroom and can't see what is going on so you should keep your comment to a minimum. I always tell my students when I am giving my opinion, something I only do when asked for, as oposed to making a counter argument to generate more discussion. I always introduce it in a manner that allows the students to comment (eg, yes but some people say/believe...) and always make clear that I am making interjections for the sake of the discussion. I've talked this over with people who taught me at university and friends who are teachers back home, and they agree its a good way of keeping discussion classes going. In other words, I am getting paid to be a facilitator. Do you still have problems with this? |
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gypsyfish
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| Ummmh, with all due respect, you are not in my classroom and can't see what is going on so you should keep your comment to a minimum. I always tell my students when I am giving my opinion, something I only do when asked for, as oposed to making a counter argument to generate more discussion. I always introduce it in a manner that allows the students to comment (eg, yes but some people say/believe...) and always make clear that I am making interjections for the sake of the discussion. I've talked this over with people who taught me at university and friends who are teachers back home, and they agree its a good way of keeping discussion classes going. In other words, I am getting paid to be a facilitator. Do you still have problems with this? |
Dude, you asked for comments. I'm sorry you don't like mine. I hope you're not so sensitive in class when a student says something that you don't like. I'm sure you are.
I'm just pointing out that I think there's a better way to teach conversation classes - kind of like playing devil's advocate to your position (except I believe what I'm saying). At the end of the semester, the student you have offended with your opinion - even if you don't believe it and were trying to generate discussion - is going to remember it. I have no problems with that or how you teach your classes.
And come fall semester, you're welcome in any of my classrooms. |
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