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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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 Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Gitmo. It just keeps getting worse. |
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| Teufelswacht wrote: |
Your true colors are showing R.S.!!!!
Ooooh, the "victim" had his "tighty-whitey's" taken off or was it boxers?
Anyway, as one who has been through some of the training offered by the U.S. military, I can answer yes, I had to run around outside, in winter, for extended periods of time in the snow, unclothed and in full view of persons of the opposite sex - while they pointed and laughed (Hey, it WAS winter, okay!!!). I had to stand through group (25+ persons in a room) "genital inspections." (Are you getting excited?)
I have gone unfed for days while going through training. I have had to "beg" for food by barking like a dog and "sincerely" ask for permission to use the bathroom.
I have been through several weeks of SERE training - where they put you into a POW camp and you are subjected to some fun activities. Hey, how about being stripped naked and locked in a freezer for a couple of days! Fun, fun, fun. How about being kicked, punched, forced to urinate and defecate in your pants? How about being forced to chew and swallow live lizards. How about not being allowed to sleep for 72 hours, etc.. This is/was military training. In my evaluation, the instructors told me I would have been executed during my time in the POW camp because of my "unrepentent and uncooperative" attitude. How's that for a report card! Sometime in the future I'll bore you with the story of how I got beat so bad that when I returned from training, my wife didn't even recognize me at first.
I'm sorry, but the activities described in the article cheapen the issue of torture overall.
But, alas, I wasn't subjected to Christina Aquilera (sp?). Now THAT is cruel!!! |
Well, you certainly speak with some authority then, Tueffie.
I have two questions for you.
1) How can anyone survive two days in a cooler naked? I would think that hypthermia and death would pretty much be inevitable. Yet, I claim no expertise about this.
2) As you suffered through experiences like these, one thing you didn't mention that I'm curious about. Were you mostly going through all this abuse/torture as part of a group or did your tormentors also use isolation from your comrades to a major extent as an additional way of terrorizing you?
I've never heard Christine Aguilera sing, so I'll rely on your expertise as to whether that rightly should be classified as torture. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Gitmo. It just keeps getting worse. |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
Well, you certainly speak with some authority then, Tueffie.
I have two questions for you.
1) How can anyone survive two days in a cooler naked? I would think that hypthermia and death would pretty much be inevitable. Yet, I claim no expertise about this.
2) As you suffered through experiences like these, one thing you didn't mention that I'm curious about. Were you mostly going through all this abuse/torture as part of a group or did your tormentors also use isolation from your comrades to a major extent as an additional way of terrorizing you?
I've never heard Christine Aguilera sing, so I'll rely on your expertise as to whether that rightly should be classified as torture. |
Count yourself fortunate you haven't had to endure Chrisitna Aquilera!
1) The freezer (the horizontal model - not the stand-up kind) was outside in the yard and not in operation. So no problem with freezing. I later surmised it had small holes drilled in the sides to let CO2 out and air in. But it was very dark and very cramped.
Every 3 to 4 hours the guards would come by, beat on the freezer with a bat, and ask "Are you in there pig?" I would have to reply, "Yes, comrade guard, I am in here." This was a safety check I guess. One time I deceided not to answer to see what would happen. Stupid. They came by asked three times, I didn't reply. The freezer door flew open and there I was staring at them. They asked "Pig, are deaf?" I replied "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, I must have been in the other room." Out of the freezer I came, slapped, kicked, punched, sprayed with freezing water, and then back in the freezer. Ok, so it broke the boredom.
I was lucky. Some were put into those skinny, tall gym lockers that were then buried, horizontally, in the ground with only the small grate at the top of the door exposed. I watched one time as a guard urinated in through the grating as one of my team mates was lying in there.
2) Isolation and sleep deprivation was used extensively. We had, at that time, individual closets/cells. Even when we we together we weren't allowed to speak or otherwise acknowledge each others existence.
Our showers consisted of being stripped naked in the yard and sprayed with water from a hose.
When I was allowed to use the bathroom (no toilet paper) it was considered a privilege. The diarhea you get just ends up in your pants most times.
We were also subjected to being threatened by guard dogs.
I was interrogated several times each day and night. Sometimes naked, sometimes not. During the interrogations and at other times I was blindfolded, slapped, spit on, kicked, beat doused with freezing water, made to or tied up into painful positions. Generally, it wasn't Disneyland.
I made the mistake of being captured with a picture of my wife in my possession. The interrogators used this in one session, describing in graphic detail the things they were going to do to my wife. Then the leader tore the picture up and threw it on the ground. This got to me. I went after him (yeah, right. What was I going to do, beat him with my shriveled tallywacker?). Anyways, some more beatings and more time outside in the freezer. (I told one guard I needed to submit a change of address card for the freezer. Response. Slap, whack, bam. - Okay so no sense of humor.)
Unlike some of the stories told my detainees released from Gitmo, nobody GAINED weight. The average weight loss was about 25 lbs per man in the short time we were there.
The course has changed a lot since I went through. The prison camp is much, much shorter duration, and the physical punishments are lighter, or so I've been told. They lightened up after they accidentally killed a couple of trainees.
At the conclusion, we went through a debriefing where our POW performance was evaluated. I was told my evaluation would state that, because of my attitude during the camp, I would have been executed as an example to the others. I always wanted to find a way to put that on a resume, but haven't quite found a way as of yet.
The combination of no food, sleep deprivation, physical abuse and psychological abuse really messes with your mind.
Some information on the current training can be found at:
http://www.training.sfahq.com/survival_training.htm
Take care
Teufelswacht |
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keithinkorea
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Gitmo. It just keeps getting worse. |
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[quote="JacktheCat"]
| Teufelswacht wrote: |
| Quote: |
... and subjected to the music of Christina Aguilera,
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If that doesn't count as torture, I don't know what does. |
Precisely what I thought! |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| It's true that what's going down in Gitmo wouldn't exactly compare to Soviet gulags, but indefinite detentions without trial is a little worrisome (I wouldn't mind if they set a period, even if it were in months, by which some evidence, even if it weren't as rigorous, had to be produced). |
Indeed. I find strongarm tactics within Gitmo to be less of an issue than the fact that people have been interned there for upwards of three years without being charged with anything. If they don't have enough evidence to lay charges by now, when will they have it? |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Terrorists are NOT criminals, nor are they POWs hense thay have no legal recourse or legal rights. When taken in a combat zone under arms and NOT in uniform, the Geneva Conventions DO NOT apply. Those holding them may do with them as they see fit. The rules of war work both ways. If one follows the rules of war, then one is granted POW status. If one does not, then they are SOL. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:53 am Post subject: ... |
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Right, fortunately, I've already been through this with another fruit loop this evening.. You're quoting the 1920s Geneva Convention and ignoring the 1949 one, calling for all POWs to be treated with humanity.
Too bad your point is just crap. |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Those in Gitmo do not meet the standards for POW status. Easy enough? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal. |
Which tribunal does the US use to determine their status? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:34 am Post subject: ... |
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No. Not easy enough.
The President who gives you your jollies likes talking about how he's a "war" president.
He can't release anyone till the "war on terrorism" is done.
But no, the prisoners in this "war", are not prisoners of "war".
Let's cite and defy whatever Geneva Convention there is or isn't that we SIGNED.
WTC Carl, enemy combatants are to be treated with humanity and, in the case, a fair trial.
While you might have it in for Gitmo inmates, how do you want our troops to be treated? |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| W.T.Carl wrote: |
| Terrorists are NOT criminals, nor are they POWs hense thay have no legal recourse or legal rights. When taken in a combat zone under arms and NOT in uniform, the Geneva Conventions DO NOT apply. Those holding them may do with them as they see fit. The rules of war work both ways. If one follows the rules of war, then one is granted POW status. If one does not, then they are SOL. |
Just what do we know about the status of the prisoners? How many are Al Qaeda and how many are part of the Taliban? Furthermore, under the Geneva Convention its up to an independent judge to determine the status of detainees, not those detaining them.
It should give pause when the administration is forced to house them off of American soil and does its best to ignore the Supreme Court on the issue.
The Bush administration is playing fast and loose with the rules of war in this open-ended "war on terror." Even if they are classified as "unlawful combatants" their convention rights must be restored once the security situation permits. But guess what--the war on terror is conveniently open-ended so the security situation can remain the same indefinitely.
The issue is not detaining them; the issue is giving some kind of justification for detaining them over and above "because we can." |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting article. Especially about the hearings at Gitmo to determine detainee status.
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Specter calls for action on Gitmo
Military: Guantanamo Bay detainees treated well
Wednesday, June 15, 2005 Posted: 12:56 PM EDT (1656 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter challenged Congress on Wednesday to help define legal rights of terrorism-era detainees at Guantanamo Bay, bemoaning a "crazy quilt" system.
Top Pentagon and law-enforcement officials defended current practices at the U.S. military prison camp.
"It may be that it's too hot to handle for Congress, may be that it's too complex to handle for Congress, or it may be that Congress wants to sit back as we customarily do," Specter, R-Pennsylvania, said as his panel took testimony on practices and policies at the U.S. military camp at an American Navy base in Cuba.
"But at any rate, Congress hasn't acted," Specter said.
The hearing came against a backdrop of growing reports of U.S. abuse of terror-war prisoners at the camp.
Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, the senior Democrat on the committee, called the prison "an international embarrassment to our nation, to our ideals and remains a festering threat to our security."
Military and Justice Department witnesses claimed that extraordinary steps were being taken to protect unspecified rights of prisoners and to process their cases.
Rear Admiral James M. McGarrah, who monitors the "enemy combatant" detention program for the Navy, told the panel that of the 558 detainees given hearings at Guantanamo, Cuba, 520 were "properly classified" as enemy combatants.
Of the remaining 38, he said, 23 have been released so far.
"Because of the highly unusual nature of the global war on terror, and because we do not want to detain any person longer than as necessary, we've taken this unprecedented and historic action to establish this process to permit enemy combatants to be heard while conflict is ongoing," McGarrah said.
Michael Wiggins, deputy associate attorney general, told the committee that each Guantanamo detainee was given a formal hearing in front of a review panel to ensure they were all properly classified as enemy combatants.
But he acknowledged that the detainees were not being held "for criminal justice purposes, and is not part of our nation's criminal justice system."
Their detention "serves the vital military objectives of preventing captured combatants from rejoining the conflict and gathering intelligence to further the overall war effort, and to prevent additional attacks against our country," Wiggins said..
"Detainees enjoy some constitutional rights," he said. But he suggested it was hard to specify just which ones.
Specter said the "Congress has its work cut out for it" as it studies the procedures used with detainees being held indefinitely at Guantanamo outside the scope of the U.S. judicial system.
"I think any fair analysis would say that we have a crazy quilt which we are dealing with here," said Specter, citing disappointment with his own past attempts at legislation to more clearly define rights and procedures for enemy-combatant detainees .
President Bush last week appeared to leave open the possibility that the prison would be closed, but Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Tuesday he thought the prison would be needed for years to come. Rumsfeld said the military has no other facility that could accommodate that many prisoners.
On Wednesday, White House press secretary Scott McClellan appeared to try to tamp down talk of shutting down Guantanamo, saying that Rumsfeld was "talking for the administration" with his comments.
"There are no plans, as we have said, for closing or shutting down Guantanamo Bay at this time," McClellan said. "But we're always looking about how best to keep America safe and how to deal with these detainees."
Air Force Brig. Gen. Thomas L. Hemingway told the panel, "America is at war. It is not a metaphorical war. It is as tangible as the blood, the rubble that littered the streets of Manhattan on September 11, 2001."
Of the detainees, "We are holding them humanely," Hemingway said.
Asked how long they could be held, Hemingway said: "I think we can hold them as long as the conflict endures."
Leahy questioned the administration's assertion that the prison camp was an essential part of the U.S.-led war on terror. "All of us know this war will not end in our lifetime," Leahy said.
Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Massachusetts, said the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo stained the nation's reputation on human rights, inflamed the Muslim world and had become "a powerful recruiting tool for terrorists."
"Closing Guantanamo makes sense," Kennedy said. |
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/15/guantanamo.congress.ap/index.html |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Which tribunal does the US use to determine their status?
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As I understand it, it is a specially appointed military tribunal, governed by the Military Code of Justice which is somewhat different than civil law. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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Which tribunal does the US use to determine their status?
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As I understand it, it is a specially appointed military tribunal, governed by the Military Code of Justice which is somewhat different than civil law. |
Interesting. On the one hand they are not PoW's (and hence cannot be military) but on the other their status is reviewed by a military tribunal. |
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