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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| FUBAR wrote: |
| I still can't believe that the U.S. Senators are going after steroids, while the sport of boxing has problems much more serious than a little juicing. |
I'm old enough to remember Ali in the ring ... and outside. He was not just a great fighter, he was man, and a great one.
Comparing Ali to Tyson ... ridiculous. And I do it only to show how far the sport has fallen.
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Very true. For all of his bravado and controversy Ali was worthy of respect. He had principles whether one agreed with them or not and he was a far better all around boxer than Tyson. Tyson was taken advantage of by many around him but it doesn't change the fact he was a thug who did his best to sink himself.
I wouldn't be surprised if years from now his deservedly tarnished image undergoes a complete softening once transferred to the silver screen. Hollywood has done worse. |
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Free World
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Drake Hotel
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
As for Tyson, he was a detriment to the sport but the greater crime is that he was a larger detriment to the black community. He was a dummy all his life, used to rob old ladies on their way home from the grocery store when he was a kid, and his behavior when he was sent into the higher reaches of American society by a talent for thuggery showed not the slightest hint of elevation from those beginnings.
Fact is, I've been looking to see Tyson fall for a while now, and to read that he did it for the money says everything about him as a human being. |
Very well put. Tyson is a tool. I was very happy to see him fall and am even happier that he is finished. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Cthulhu wrote: |
Very true. For all of his bravado and controversy Ali was worthy of respect. He had principles whether one agreed with them or not and he was a far better all around boxer than Tyson. Tyson was taken advantage of by many around him but it doesn't change the fact he was a thug who did his best to sink himself.
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Tyson was an all round victim. Emotionally weak, abused, from a sad childhood, his strength was all physical.
there is no rule that says a boxer has to represent a cause, morality, or anything else- and Ali was a pretentious bore who talked too much.
Tyson was purely and simply a fighter, a gladiator. If the two were to meet in the prime of their careers, my money would be on Tyson, -no doubt about that whatsoever. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Tyson was an all round victim. Emotionally weak, abused, from a sad childhood, his strength was all physical. |
Funny, how I never cried for this guy, and I'm usually pretty well-known for exessive amounts of sympathy ... are we all just callous, then?
| Quote: |
| there is no rule that says a boxer has to represent a cause, morality, or anything else- and Ali was a pretentious bore who talked too much. |
Actually, he was that rare creature, a boxer who was able to talk. He was occasionally funny, and his characteristic bravado he tossed at the world was just that, a character he created and in its creation he was able to breathe invigoration into the sport as a whole - a lot of which has faded quite a lot from his absence. By the way, anyone here who enjoys WWF and it's competitors owes their enjoyment of that new entertainment genre to the erstwhile Cassius Clay, who created that whole schtick, but lived it while creating it, because going into his ring was always an uncertain thing, no matter what he was shouting at Joe Frazier during the wreigh-in.
As for being a pretentious bore, I was just a white kid from the suburbs, and I never yawned once, and I can extrapolate that single-parent ghetto boys found even less reason to do so.
I understand that a lot of people, all they know of Ali is the Will Smith movie. That ain't half the science involved.
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| Tyson was purely and simply a fighter, a gladiator. If the two were to meet in the prime of their careers, my money would be on Tyson, -no doubt about that whatsoever. |
Damn, we gonna get into one of those wierdass hypothetical conversations about whether the 1929 Yankees Team could would whomp the crap out of suchandsuch World Series team of today? (The usual joke is that the '29 team would lose from fumbling all the outfield catches due to being amazed at the modern jet airliners flying over the stadium ...  )
Okay, I'll bite. Tyson was all bulk and never an ounce of heart. He was managed to the hilt to produce a string of KOs that looks good in the stats, but Ali had agility as well as stamina and reflexes to match, and what's more, he sincerely believed his own hype. His key to being The Greatest was to believe you already are and then evrything else falls into place.
But, hey, you know what, in your hypothetical match-up, let's make a side-bet about which of the two men the crowd would be cheering for and deeply wanting to see win it.
As I said originally, the comparison is ridiculous. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Great article.. learned a much more about him.. he has six kids! The youngest is 3 months old!
I also didn't realize he lives in Phoenix.. interesting choice.
The 300+ birds that he owns was a bit surprising as well. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
But, hey, you know what, in your hypothetical match-up, let's make a side-bet about which of the two men the crowd would be cheering for and deeply wanting to see win it.
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I've got one better. How about a hypothetical match between "Mad Dog Bobster" and "Kid Rapier". I'll buy tickets.
Introducing, from the Bay Area weighing in at.... ahhh who cares. Mad Dog Bobster!!!!!
And next, the challenger, fresh from a trip to save some bird somewhere, Kid Rapier!!!!!
Before we begin, let's take our viewers back in time. Let's take our viewers back to the last match Bobster had with "Gentleman Joo" in Baghdad. The results weren't pretty. At the end of the internet opinion duel Gentleman Joo was:
Who will win this duel? Who knows? Who cares? Let's get ready to ruuummmbbbllleee!!!!
Sorry guys, I guess too much Jack Daniels......
Take Care.
Teufelswacht |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Teufelswacht wrote: |
Sorry guys, I guess too much Jack Daniels......
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I admire your style, not even 7 in the evening on a weeknight and you're uncorking our good frined Jack already. I usually suffice with a tumbler to three of soju at least until the sun goes down ...
Party on, Garth. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| Teufelswacht wrote: |
Sorry guys, I guess too much Jack Daniels......
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I admire your style, not even 7 in the evening on a weeknight and you're uncorking our good frined Jack already. I usually suffice with a tumbler to three of soju at least until the sun goes down ...
Party on, Garth. |
The combination of a day off and the fact that I had a crown come lose about 5:00pm - which I ended up swallowing. Right now, I am wrestling with my new nemesis Mr. Pain!
So, I decided to enlist the aid of my friend Mr. Jack Daniels and form my own "Coalition of the Willing" to combat that tyrant Mr. Dental Pain.
My dentist (who does all my work for free) won't be available until tomorrow at 8:00am. It's gonna be a long, alcohol soaked night, my friend.
Take care. |
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guangho
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: a spot full of deception, stupidity, and public micturation and thus unfit for longterm residency
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| I never thought I would say this about MT but....damned poor bastard. |
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komtengi
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Location: Slummin it up in Haebangchon
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| looks like K1 is trying to get him in the ring |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:53 am Post subject: |
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WWF?? Oh come on!! If the venerable Mr. Clay is responsible for that, he should have been shot.
Yes, he had a lot of self-belief and high self esteem, he was a darling of the media, etc etc as opposed to Tyson. But Tyson and his chequered background just appeals to me a bit more somehow, as interesting. He is essentially a damaged, uncontrolled, yet basically honest, person.
And he likes pigeons. Keeping pigeons is one of my earliest memories.
As a fighter I think his build, speed, and sheer aggressiveness would have taken out Ali quite early on. in his prime, he never gave taller opponents a chance to use their greater reach.
Of course Ali has greater stamina and is far more articulate, better at making his opponent lose focus, etc...but he wouldn't get the time needed to make it work. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:53 am Post subject: |
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I feel sorry for Iron Mike - and his victims. He could have been the greatest that there has ever been. Now he will go down in history as a side-show freak of sorts.
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As a historical note, most great heavyweights wound up being freak shows and sob stories. Boxing is full of tales of boxers getting shafted and shafting themselves. Go see 'Raging Bull' or read 'The Devil and Sonny Liston'.
Boxing isn't the occupation of a healthy, normal individual. Usually, fighters come from the lowest of social stratas and have little formal education, and have intermittant pay days. They do stupid things with money.
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| I'm old enough to remember Ali in the ring ... and outside. He was not just a great fighter, he was [a?] man, and a great one. |
Ali was a great fighter, a great talker, had a great set of brass balls, and I respected his stand on Vietnam. But I don't think he gets enough credit for being an asshole. He more or less made every black fighter who went up against him an "Uncle Tom". He used his status as a member of the Nation of Islam to make every black fighter he went against seem like a "white hope". This from a guy from a middle class background who was one eighth white. Look what he did to Joe Frazier.
Made for some good fights, though.
In some ways, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. He's only semi literate. And he had always had problems with people around him leading him around and giving him his opinions. And I'm a fan.
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Tyson was an all round victim. Emotionally weak, abused, from a sad childhood, his strength was all physical.
there is no rule that says a boxer has to represent a cause, morality, or anything else- and Ali was a pretentious bore who talked too much.
Tyson was purely and simply a fighter, a gladiator. If the two were to meet in the prime of their careers, my money would be on Tyson, -no doubt about that whatsoever. |
I disagree with both your points.
"I murdered a stone,
I injured a brick,
I'm so bad I make medicine sick."
Ali was always great theatre. Anyone who accieves what Ali did gets to say whatever they want and as much as they want for the rest of their natural lives.
If Tyson was around in the early seventies, I would rank him below Ali, Frazier and Big George. He'd be second tier, along with guys like Chuvalo, Ellis, Bonavena, Patterson, and Norton. In all fairness, that's a hell of a second tier, and the best first tier in history. No shame in that.
Frazier had a similar style but was a better all round fighter without the inconsistancies. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Cthulhu wrote: |
Very true. For all of his bravado and controversy Ali was worthy of respect. He had principles whether one agreed with them or not and he was a far better all around boxer than Tyson. Tyson was taken advantage of by many around him but it doesn't change the fact he was a thug who did his best to sink himself.
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Tyson was an all round victim. Emotionally weak, abused, from a sad childhood, his strength was all physical.
there is no rule that says a boxer has to represent a cause, morality, or anything else- and Ali was a pretentious bore who talked too much.
Tyson was purely and simply a fighter, a gladiator. If the two were to meet in the prime of their careers, my money would be on Tyson, -no doubt about that whatsoever. |
Unless we consider the possibility that Tyson had no control over his own brain and body then I would hope we would come to the conclusion that wife-beating within marriage, rape, biting the ears off opponents and other similar anti-social acts to be a bit beyond what normal people do, Ali included. I don't see why why we should use his background to excuse behavior that goes way beyond lashing out over a bad childhood. Similarly, I see no reason to defend a person who engages in those sorts of activities simply because he had enough talent to hit other people effectively in a boxing ring. People have the ability to rise above their circumstances so there's no sympathy here.
As far as Tyson vs. Ali goes, it's all hypothetical, but you really have to watch old video of Ali to appreciate Ali's speed, agility and skill. My money would have been on Ali. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Cthulhu wrote: |
Unless we consider the possibility that Tyson had no control over his own brain and body then I would hope we would come to the conclusion that wife-beating within marriage, rape, biting the ears off opponents and other similar anti-social acts to be a bit beyond what normal people do, Ali included. I don't see why why we should use his background to excuse behavior that goes way beyond lashing out over a bad childhood. Similarly, I see no reason to defend a person who engages in those sorts of activities simply because he had enough talent to hit other people effectively in a boxing ring. People have the ability to rise above their circumstances so there's no sympathy here.
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Thank God someone here has some sense. The guy is a horrible thug and a menace to society. It always amazed me how much he was admired. |
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