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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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 Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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From the article:
"They would give (the late) Jeffrey Dahmer a second chance before they gave me another one. If you saw a (police) lineup and saw Tyson and Dahmer and they asked, 'Who killed and ate those people?' you would pick me and not Jeffrey."
This from the guy who bit Evander Holyfield's ear off. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
[quote="Leslie Cheswyck"]
From the article:
"They would give (the late) Jeffrey Dahmer a second chance before they gave me another one. If you saw a (police) lineup and saw Tyson and Dahmer and they asked, 'Who killed and ate those people?' you would pick me and not Jeffrey." |
Jeeze, and THIS is the guy we should feel remorse for at the end of a career he never deserved, the guy who in his own words thinks people love him a little bit less than Jeffrey Dahmer. I've watched Tyson in the ring and in every instance where he could get away with a blow below the waistband and not be seen by the refs, he took that opportunity ... again, contrast that with Ali, and what do you find.
When his number came up in the lottery, Mr Clay claimed religious C.O. status, changed his name and even went the unnecessary distance to explain that the Viet Cong never did a bad thing to him in his life, that Viet Nam is the white man's war, and he'd been fighting the same enemy since he took his first breath in the world.
There were plenty of people around to tell him what a bad career move it might be for a black man in a position of moral leadership of other younger black men to oppose the plans the US govt had for those young black men at that time. There is nothing to suggest he was not smart enough to understand such advice, so we must conclude that the statements came from a clear and quiet voice inside that his sense of nobility allowed himself to express in strong and clear words.
His poliitcs made him too hot for him to fight in the US, but there are other places in the world where such things can happen. He was down, but not out.
I came across this anecdotal story just tonight due to thoughts incurred from reading this thread. I loved it.
I was born in 1983. Back then, Muhammad Ali had already quit his career as a professional boxer and Parkinson's syndrome had taken over his life. This untreatable nervous disorder severely slows one's movements and slurs one's speech. In 1998, my dad raised my interest in Ali by purchasing a videotape with two Ali fights. They could not have been more different from one another. The first one is shot in black and white and shows the young Ali - then still Cassius Clay - winning merely with his reflexes and lightning-fast combinations. The second encounter on the videotape took place ten years later, in 1974. This was the bout where Muhammad Ali misled the whole world. For eight rounds he was leaning back against the ropes, taking blow after blow from George Foreman, the colossal muscle-man he faced. It is hard, almost impossible, to try and think of the amount of pain Ali had to endure during that hot night in Africa. Yet his face signaled that nothing in the world could hurt him. In the end, suffering prevailed over brutality, and after more than half an hour of being beaten on literally every part of the body, Ali knocked out the startled Foreman.
Almost thirty years after the Ali vs. Foreman encounter, I had the once-in-a-lifetime chance to meet Ali myself when he visited Germany. When I saw him try and get out of his limousine, it broke my heart. It seemed that it took him more than five minutes before he was finally standing in front of all the people, his arms shaking, his eyes almost entirely closed from fatigue. Very slowly, he made his way through the crowd into the arena where he was presented on stage with the German boxer Karl Mildenberger, who used to be one of his opponents. After the usual questions and answers, some one jokingly proposed that the two should have a rematch. Ali turned to life at these very words. He opened his eyes, glanced at Mildenberger and started charging towards him. The surprised German raised his fists for protection. All of a sudden, the young Ali was on stage. Moving with incredible speed, his fists jumping towards his foe's face, his feet suggesting the famous Ali shuffle, it seemed as if he had told the limiting disease that it had to step back for the moment. The crowd was giving him a standing ovation. I am sure I was not the only one who fought the tears.
The next day, I was driving home and thought about the incredible event I had witnessed. Once again, Ali had misled everyone by pretending everything was alright when indeed he was a very sick man. Had the man not every right in the world to show his sufferings and receive the people's pity? Instead, he chose not to let Parkinson's steal his life and people's happiness. He chose to shut up the disease within his body, as if to prevent people from even knowing about it. How much strength must one have to deal with a sickness that fierce and severe with such dignity and pride? I promised myself that, if I would ever be seriously ill, to try and deal with it the same way. At the same moment, I knew that I would not have the strength.
Johannes Ehrmann
Ah, rapier, and you want to talk about gladiators, do you? The fight does not stop when we the fighter steps out of the colliseum, it merely continues in another arena. To quote from the film that your single word has brought to mind with regard to these two men, Ali and Tyson, there is this sentence which we have all heard by now :
"Ultimately, we're all dead men, sadly we cannot choose how, BUT we can decide how we meet that end in order that we are remembered as men.".
Will Mike Tyson smile gladly into Death's smiling face when his time comes? None of us can know, but we can suspect he will huddle under the blankets and hope the poor salesman goes knocking on another door. On the other hand, my own theory is that Cassius Clay will get out of that bed, in spirit if not in body, stand upright and query the intruder in no uncertain terms :
"You want a piece of piece of ME, suckah? Is that what you want? Are you SURE?" |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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That was truly moving, bobster. tear jerking stuff, really. I assume ali replaced spiderman as your all time role-model of manhood?
They were both wasters.
I am the King. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I've watched Tyson in the ring and in every instance where he could get away with a blow below the waistband and not be seen by the refs, he took that opportunity ... again, contrast that with Ali, and what do you find. |
Yeah, and Ali never ever ever hit on the break.
The beatification of Ali doesn't stand up to close inspection. |
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sparkx
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: thekimchipot.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| The beatification of Ali doesn't stand up to close inspection. |
You mean something like this?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/deford/news/2001/05/30/deford_insider/
That book, by Mark Kram, has just come out, and it has indeed forced a new evaluation of Ali. Kram, who covered Ali for Sports Illustrated for a decade during the height of the great heavyweight's career, basically argues that whereas Ali was a fabulous boxer, he was an inconsequential social figure of no intellect, who was, in fact, a religious fake, an obsessive womanizer, a hypocrite and a dupe of the Black Muslims. Kram even argues that Ali's most famous line, the utterance that earned him such calumny in traditional circles but credence and respect in the anti-war movement -- "I ain't got no quarrel against them Viet Cong" -- was, in fact, dished up to him by a Black Muslim named Leon X. Even that was insincere. Ali, Kram says, wasn't scared of going into the army; he was just scared of bucking the Muslim extremists. "Seldom," Kram writes, "has a public figure of such superficial depth been more wrongly perceived."
Curiously, the most painful charges against Ali were all part of a loud public record. That was the mean and ugly ways he taunted other black -- and only black -- opponents, which he did -- and quite successfully -- to establish himself as the true representative of African manhood, while painting his rivals as unworthy, even Uncle Toms. Somehow, though, almost everybody laughed along -- even as Ali almost brought poor Joe Frazier to tears, labeling him a "gorilla," intimating that Frazier was a dense buffoon. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| sparkx wrote: |
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| The beatification of Ali doesn't stand up to close inspection. |
You mean something like this?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/deford/news/2001/05/30/deford_insider/
That book, by Mark Kram, has just come out, and it has indeed forced a new evaluation of Ali. Kram, who covered Ali for Sports Illustrated for a decade during the height of the great heavyweight's career, basically argues that whereas Ali was a fabulous boxer, he was an inconsequential social figure of no intellect, who was, in fact, a religious fake, an obsessive womanizer, a hypocrite and a dupe of the Black Muslims. Kram even argues that Ali's most famous line, the utterance that earned him such calumny in traditional circles but credence and respect in the anti-war movement -- "I ain't got no quarrel against them Viet Cong" -- was, in fact, dished up to him by a Black Muslim named Leon X. Even that was insincere. Ali, Kram says, wasn't scared of going into the army; he was just scared of bucking the Muslim extremists. "Seldom," Kram writes, "has a public figure of such superficial depth been more wrongly perceived."
Curiously, the most painful charges against Ali were all part of a loud public record. That was the mean and ugly ways he taunted other black -- and only black -- opponents, which he did -- and quite successfully -- to establish himself as the true representative of African manhood, while painting his rivals as unworthy, even Uncle Toms. Somehow, though, almost everybody laughed along -- even as Ali almost brought poor Joe Frazier to tears, labeling him a "gorilla," intimating that Frazier was a dense buffoon. |
Exactly. I knew all that. It beats me how most people buy into media hype. The same people think Elvis and the beatles were the greatest, and so on.
Lets try and form our own opinions people!!!
Tyson would've put Ali down within 2 rounds. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:58 am Post subject: |
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Rapier,
This is one of those warps in the space/time continuum: Leslie agrees with The Bobster. Ali figured out how to beat Foreman and he would find a way to beat Tyson. Would Ali 'rope-a-dope' Tyson? I can't say. But he would outsmart him (Who can doubt that?) and plant him. Just because he had finesse doesn't mean he lacked brawn.
Sparkx, Paji,
So Ali was no saint. BFD. He ws no cannibal either. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
Rapier,
This is one of those warps in the space/time continuum: Leslie agrees with The Bobster. Ali figured out how to beat Foreman and he would find a way to beat Tyson. Would Ali 'rope-a-dope' Tyson? I can't say. But he would outsmart him (Who can doubt that?) and plant him. Just because he had finesse doesn't mean he lacked brawn.
Sparkx, Paji,
So Ali was no saint. BFD. He ws no cannibal either. |
How dare you disagree with me, you are cut off.
You guys seem to have fallen for the hype, the human need for hero worship. Mr Clay was not God. The media thrives on creating illusions for the public to buy into.
He was not invincible: Frazier beat him by unanimous decision in 1971, Leon spinks in 1978: larry holmes Knocked him out in 1980: trevor berbick whipped him in 81.
He was no moral leader: a compulsive womaniser and cheater: he was no patriot, he avoided the draft.
lets look at the statistics:Tyson knocked out 44 opponents, ali 37: and was world heavyweight champion 4 times: Ali 3. Ali was a strategist, who outwitted opponents, wound them up etc. Tyson was the real deal, he didn't have to use words: his fists did the talking.
Tyson was locked up in his prime. You have to understand that Bruno and others would never have become world champions if he had been allowed out, and he would have defended his title/fought more.
Yes, Ali was more charismatic and well-liked. But don't let that confuse you. You are sounding like women at a chippendales event now. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:33 am Post subject: |
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rapier wrote:
| Quote: |
| He was not invincible: Frazier beat him by unanimous decision in 1971, Leon spinks in 1978: larry holmes Knocked him out in 1980: trevor berbick whipped him in 81. |
Ali came back to defeat Frazier twice and Spinks as well. He took on Forman in the latter's prime. Sonny Liston as well. Three of Ali's losses came late in his career and he didn't retire until 40. Tyson still hasn't even reached 40 yet.
And let's not forget those two magical words: Buster Douglas. At least Ali's loss to Berbick was at the end of his career, not while he was in his prime.
| Quote: |
| Tyson was the real deal, he didn't have to use words: his fists did the talking. |
They sure did. Just ask Robin Givens.
"Back in 1988, when Mike Tyson was world heavyweight boxing champion and his marriage to actress Robin Givens had just broken up, he was asked by his biographer to describe his best-ever punch. "Man, I'll never forget that," he said. "It was when I fought with Robin. She really offended me and I went 'Bam'. She flew backward hitting every wall in the apartment. That was the best punch I've ever thrown in my life."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,237939,00.html |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Glad Sparkx dropped by, he posted the stuff I was expecting to get back from rapier, considering the 10 pages and more I've seen him spill against The Mighty and Powerful Gord on other ocassions, and I was disappointed that it had to come from somewhere else ... still, glad to see you again, Sparkx. I remember when we used to trade blows back when, before I stopped hanging out in the General Forum. I still read you over there sometimes, especially when someone calls attention to something you are up to.
Often I do feel guilty when distracting a discussion topic from its intent, but I think this one is better off for talking about more than just Mike - I think we'd all just have ended up agreeing that Tyson was a pile of crap and not lot more.
Mainly, Sparkx, I will disagree with author of the book you quoted in many respects, but despite the high language and allusions to the Ridley Scott film - hey, rapier started it - I really didn't intend to paint Cassius as a son of the Almighty. My thesis was mainly that he was a better human being than Mr. Tyson ... and that was never a difficult basket to slam dunk, so I will stand by it. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Rapier,
I confess to the hero worship. That's how it is with childhood icons, I suppose. Guilty as charged.
Were it not for his for his womanizing, cheating, and draft dodging...he might have been president, right?
He did not run off to Canada as many other draft dodgers did. He stayed and faced the consequences like a man. Like him or not, that commands respect.
In a way, Ali was my introduction to critical thinking. My own father, a decorated Vietnam war veteran---a Lt Col. no less, hardly the guy to be in Ali's corner on this issue---supported him. "They can't strip him of his tltle! That [draft dodging] has nothing to do with boxing." Mighty powerful stuff for an eight year old. I could see the admiration and respect in my old man for Ali. I learned from him that you could still admire and respect someone with whom you completely disagreed. It was some time later that I discovered Socrates and all those lessons on civil disobedience. But I learned it first from Muhhamed Ali (and my dad)!
Sorry, rapier.  Ali is much more than an athlete to me. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| sparkx wrote: |
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| The beatification of Ali doesn't stand up to close inspection. |
You mean something like this?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/deford/news/2001/05/30/deford_insider/
That book, by Mark Kram, has just come out, and it has indeed forced a new evaluation of Ali. Kram, who covered Ali for Sports Illustrated for a decade during the height of the great heavyweight's career, basically argues that whereas Ali was a fabulous boxer, he was an inconsequential social figure of no intellect, who was, in fact, a religious fake, an obsessive womanizer, a hypocrite and a dupe of the Black Muslims. Kram even argues that Ali's most famous line, the utterance that earned him such calumny in traditional circles but credence and respect in the anti-war movement -- "I ain't got no quarrel against them Viet Cong" -- was, in fact, dished up to him by a Black Muslim named Leon X. Even that was insincere. Ali, Kram says, wasn't scared of going into the army; he was just scared of bucking the Muslim extremists. "Seldom," Kram writes, "has a public figure of such superficial depth been more wrongly perceived."
Curiously, the most painful charges against Ali were all part of a loud public record. That was the mean and ugly ways he taunted other black -- and only black -- opponents, which he did -- and quite successfully -- to establish himself as the true representative of African manhood, while painting his rivals as unworthy, even Uncle Toms. Somehow, though, almost everybody laughed along -- even as Ali almost brought poor Joe Frazier to tears, labeling him a "gorilla," intimating that Frazier was a dense buffoon. |
I haven't read Kram's book, but I think the guys point is that we should appreciate Joe Frazier more. The man was a hell of a fighter, but he's constantly in Ali's shadow. Like I said earlier, Ali had a great cast of characters around him. His opponents made him. Boxing isn't "Highlander", you can appreciate more than one guy.
Unfortunately, Kram feels the need to tear Ali down to build Smokin Joe up.
I agree with Cheswick. I'll never say Ali was a monster, but he's no saint either.
| Quote: |
| Tyson would've put Ali down within 2 rounds. |
Seriously, how many Ali fights have you watched?
Ali was a natural and a resilient fighter. Tyson was a gifted puncher, and that's about it. The reason why Tyson hasn't had career success since Buster Douglas is because he lacks Ali's resilience. He's kind of frail upstairs.
Douglas wrote the blue print on how to beat Tyson. Throw a couple of punches out of Tysons range, then fall in and tie him up. Tyson hasn't been able to learn any new tricks since then. I'd see Ali taking a decision or taking him out in lthe late rounds. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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And let's not forget the Cosell factor. The good natured banter between the two was the best living comedy ever. You can't script that stuff. The way they traded jabs. Great chemistry. Great love between them. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
The reason why Tyson hasn't had career success since Buster Douglas is because he lacks Ali's resilience. He's kind of frail upstairs.
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Actually he came back to retake his title. Douglas was unavailable to fight again if you remember.
1990
Feb. 11 James Douglas, Tokyo, Japan, KO by 10 (loss)
(Lost World Heavyweight Title)
June 16 Henry Tillman, Las Vegas, KO 1
Dec. 8 Alex Stewart, Atlantic City, KO 1
1991 (2-0)
Mar. 18 Donovan Ruddock, Las Vegas, TKO 7
June 28 Donovan Ruddock, Las Vegas, W 12
1995 (2-0)
Aug. 19 Peter McNeeley, Las Vegas, W DSQ 1
Dec. 16 Buster Mathis, Jr., Philadelphia, KO 3
1996 (2-1)
Mar. 16 Frank Bruno, Las Vegas, TKO 3
(Won WBC Heavyweight Title)
Sept. 7 Bruce Seldon, Las Vegas, TKO 1
(Won WBA Heavyweight Title)
What is immediately obvious is that his wins are usually by knockout, in the first opening rounds. Ali was helped moreso by referees decision after struggling for 10 rounds or so. A reflection of his great popularity no doubt and crowd appeal. But if you're looking for a genuine animal, tyson is your pit bull. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
The reason why Tyson hasn't had career success since Buster Douglas is because he lacks Ali's resilience. He's kind of frail upstairs.
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Actually he came back to retake his title. Douglas was unavailable to fight again if you remember.
1990
Feb. 11 James Douglas, Tokyo, Japan, KO by 10 (loss)
(Lost World Heavyweight Title)
June 16 Henry Tillman, Las Vegas, KO 1
Dec. 8 Alex Stewart, Atlantic City, KO 1
1991 (2-0)
Mar. 18 Donovan Ruddock, Las Vegas, TKO 7
June 28 Donovan Ruddock, Las Vegas, W 12
1995 (2-0)
Aug. 19 Peter McNeeley, Las Vegas, W DSQ 1
Dec. 16 Buster Mathis, Jr., Philadelphia, KO 3
1996 (2-1)
Mar. 16 Frank Bruno, Las Vegas, TKO 3
(Won WBC Heavyweight Title)
Sept. 7 Bruce Seldon, Las Vegas, TKO 1
(Won WBA Heavyweight Title)
What is immediately obvious is that his wins are usually by knockout, in the first opening rounds. Ali was helped moreso by referees decision after struggling for 10 rounds or so. A reflection of his great popularity no doubt and crowd appeal. But if you're looking for a genuine animal, tyson is your pit bull. |
Frank and Bruce who? They're hardly Liston and Foreman. The truth is, Tyson never beat an opponent when he was an underdog. Ali did it a couple of times. Like I said, the man was resilient. And with his time in exile, we never got to see him at his best.
Thanks for bringing the early KO thing. Tyson tends to get into trouble if he doesn't take out his opponent in the first few rounds. After round 4 is when the questionable behaviour starts. Ear biting, low blows, elbows. Tyson loses focus.
For the record, I think the heavweight talent pool in the early nineties was the best it had been since Ali/Frazier/Foreman's heyday. Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer, Lewis and even guys like Golota. We could have had some great fights, but that's not the way things worked out. Business, I guess. |
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