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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:14 am Post subject: "America Does Not Go Abroad... |
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"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy."
John Quincy Adams (1767-1848) 6th President
It's too bad some presidents don't read about other men who held the office before them. They might learn something. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:50 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy."
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To me, the operative words are 'in search of'. I take that to mean voluntary wars. That's my reading of the quote. Agree or disagree, that's your right. I happen to be one of those that wants my country to return to respectable behavior. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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If you think that the United States is the only nation that fights wars abroad or that it is the only government that intervenes in the affairs of other states, then you have a very naive perspective of world affairs.
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The point was not that America is the only country that goes abroad in search of conflict. Rather, it's that America historically has not done that. So, America's current positon is not so much a violation of international etiquette, as it is a departure from America's traditional principles and practices.
But you're right. The quote was probably more applicable prior to the 20th Century. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the full text of the speech:
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And now, friends and countrymen, if the wise and learned philosophers of the elder world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and Shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to enquire what has America done for the benefit of mankind?
Let our answer be this: America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity.
She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights.
She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own.
She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart.
She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.
Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.
But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.
She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.
She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.
The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force....
She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....
[America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice.
When John Quincy Adams served as U. S. Secretary of State, he delivered this speech to the U.S. House of Representatives on July 4, 1821, in celebration of American Independence Day.
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
If you think that the United States is the only nation that fights wars abroad or that it is the only government that intervenes in the affairs of other states, then you have a very naive perspective of world affairs.
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Did he say the US was the lone country to do it?? I don't believe he did. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:40 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:17 am Post subject: |
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She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.
The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force....
She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....
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That part ain't bad either. |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Yeah. America is such a bully...
Ahem...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31795-2004Nov7.html
French Unleash Force Against Chaos in Ivory Coast
Key Points Seized As Armed Mobs Hunt Foreigners
By Parfait Kouassi
Associated Press
Monday, November 8, 2004; Page A22
ABIDJAN, Ivory Coast, Nov. 7 -- The French military used overwhelming force Sunday to put down an explosion of anti-French violence in its former West African colony, deploying troops, armored vehicles and helicopter gunships against machete-waving mobs that went from house to house hunting for foreigners.
The chaos erupted Saturday when Ivory Coast warplanes launched a surprise airstrike that killed nine French peacekeepers and an American aid worker. The government called the bombing a mistake.
France hit back within hours, wiping out Ivory Coast's newly strengthened air force -- two Russian-made Sukhoi jet fighters and at least three helicopter gunships -- on the ground.
The slain troops were among 4,000 French peacekeepers and 6,000 U.N. troops who have served as a buffer between Ivory Coast's rebel north and loyalist south since civil war broke out in September 2002.
************************
They wiped out the WHOLE DAMN AIRFORCE!!! |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject: re: |
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Someone mentioned Bush's new theory of "preemptive war." That is the issue. I think very few would ever say that America should never go to war, but a preemptive war in which the reasons for said war have been disproven is an entirely novel idea in American international affairs, and it is plainly wrong unless the evidence is irrefutable. Bush and his cabinet knowingly lied to the American people to go to war for God knows what reason. That is unacceptable, and America should be ashamed. The rest of the world (minus the laughable coalition of the willing) is correct in its negative assessment of American international interference. America should lead by example at home, and only defend itself when absolutely the last resort. Preemptive wars might well lead to the destruction of the entire world if they are not checked.
Peace,
Daniel
P.S. I am an American (a Southern one at that). |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| Someone mentioned Bush's new theory of "preemptive war." That is the issue. I think very few would ever say that America should never go to war, but a preemptive war in which the reasons for said war have been disproven is an entirely novel idea in American international affairs, and it is plainly wrong unless the evidence is irrefutable. Bush and his cabinet knowingly lied to the American people to go to war for God knows what reason. That is unacceptable, and America should be ashamed. The rest of the world (minus the laughable coalition of the willing) is correct in its negative assessment of American international interference. America should lead by example at home, and only defend itself when absolutely the last resort. Preemptive wars might well lead to the destruction of the entire world if they are not checked. |
What you write here is reasonable. I'd not use the word "interference," though. We're all caught up in a complex web of influence and interaction. The age of isolationism is long gone. What happens in country C is indeed relevant to country A. I remeber a globalization talk I once attended. The speaker said we're like a hand. If they pinkey is broken it may not seem particularly relevant to the thumb, but the hand is damaged, and that affects the thumb. The thumb also has a stake in the game if the pinkey is aggressive towards one of the other fingers... |
I certainly agree that we are in a complex web of influence and interaction. My concern is not that we (America) are acting within this web, but the manner in which we're acting. The world has no doubt changed, but I do not think preemption is a valid option. If Iraq had been directly involved in 9/11 or actually had weapons of mass destruction which directly threatened our interests (oil aside), then a case could have been made. But that's not the case. In my opinion, lies were devised to change the Hussein regime. Also, a case can be made that regional politics should first and foremost be dealt with regionally. There are some strong Middle Eastern nations that were not on very friendly terms with Hussein that could have handled the situation had the real need arisen.
Peace,
Daniel |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:06 am Post subject: |
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[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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turtlepi1
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Here is the problem...
Isreal doesn't need to fabricate evidence to justify a preemptive strike.
"Palestine" doesn't need to fabricate evidence to justify a preemptive strike.
India doesn't need to fabricate evidence to justify a preemptive strike.
Pakistan doesn't need to fabricate evidence to justify a preemptive strike.
Taiwan doesn't need to fabricate evidence to justify a preemptive strike.
Etc...etc...
For now China seems content with economic domination of other powers but if push comes to shove in Taiwan they could fabricate evidence to justify a preemptive strike.
Of course the Russians immediately tried to exploit the situation to their benefit but we quickly learned only the US can exploit "preemptive" strikes as a solution to "apparent" problems. |
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