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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| PolyChronic Time Girl wrote: |
| This is one of those cases where working at a public school can be worse than working at a hagwon. Nearly all public schools will require you to acquire a death certificate. It is a government policy they made on foreign teachers to prevent premature departures/midnight runs. It is a bullsh*t rule that they are adamant about and I have had the same experience. Hagwons don't usually require this, and if your haggie boss is cool, he/she should let you go without a problem. This is the one thing I hate about the public school system...the mandatory death certificates. |
Why would anyone doing a midnight run be dumb enough to do that? I don't get it? They would just leave whenever they wanted. |
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crazylemongirl
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Derrek wrote: |
| PolyChronic Time Girl wrote: |
| This is one of those cases where working at a public school can be worse than working at a hagwon. Nearly all public schools will require you to acquire a death certificate. It is a government policy they made on foreign teachers to prevent premature departures/midnight runs. It is a bullsh*t rule that they are adamant about and I have had the same experience. Hagwons don't usually require this, and if your haggie boss is cool, he/she should let you go without a problem. This is the one thing I hate about the public school system...the mandatory death certificates. |
Why would anyone doing a midnight run be dumb enough to do that? I don't get it? They would just leave whenever they wanted. |
It's bizzare as presumably the fact I'm back with a death notice would show that I hadn't infact done a midnight run.
This whole thing has been a crash course in cultural differences. Death for westerners seems to be a very private and delicate matter.
My minder mentioned that it would in most cases the prinicpal would go and visit the family of a Korea teacher 
My mother is teacher back home and while the principal and VP were thinking about going her friends said it would be better for them to go as they were closer to my mom but they certainly didn't show up at the family home nor ring other family members to verfiy the story. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| crazylemongirl wrote: |
| Derrek wrote: |
| PolyChronic Time Girl wrote: |
| This is one of those cases where working at a public school can be worse than working at a hagwon. Nearly all public schools will require you to acquire a death certificate. It is a government policy they made on foreign teachers to prevent premature departures/midnight runs. It is a bullsh*t rule that they are adamant about and I have had the same experience. Hagwons don't usually require this, and if your haggie boss is cool, he/she should let you go without a problem. This is the one thing I hate about the public school system...the mandatory death certificates. |
Why would anyone doing a midnight run be dumb enough to do that? I don't get it? They would just leave whenever they wanted. |
It's bizzare as presumably the fact I'm back with a death notice would show that I hadn't infact done a midnight run.
This whole thing has been a crash course in cultural differences. Death for westerners seems to be a very private and delicate matter.
My minder mentioned that it would in most cases the prinicpal would go and visit the family of a Korea teacher
My mother is teacher back home and while the principal and VP were thinking about going her friends said it would be better for them to go as they were closer to my mom but they certainly didn't show up at the family home nor ring other family members to verfiy the story. |
Why not tell them that your family is so distraught over your boss's rudeness and lack of respect for your culture in calling the family at such a time, that your parents have demanded that you quit the job immediately and come home. The only thing that will keep you there is a formal apology for asking for the death certificate, as you are already making plans to leave (hand in your notice at this point).
Your boss will freak, think on it for a day or two, then give in. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:26 am Post subject: |
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You got the time off you needed but have to forfeit two days' salary as a result. That's the upshot. And it ain't that bad.
Don't read too much into the interaction. Yes, there was some doubt expressed over whether you can be trusted, but I'm sure he's heard of the horror stories of what other foreign teachers have done at other hagwons.
He is the boss and your elder and a man. That makes him three times your superior by traditional mores. Korea may be a modern democracy but relationships are still largely based on older codes of conduct. Like it or not but that's the way it is.
You got what you needed, though not everything you wanted.
Let the guy feel like he's being responsible and limiting the (ab)use of such leaves from work (Koreans nearly die at work for their bosses - it's just what's done).
And move on. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
You got the time off you needed but have to forfeit two days' salary as a result. That's the upshot. And it ain't that bad.
Don't read too much into the interaction. Yes, there was some doubt expressed over whether you can be trusted, but I'm sure he's heard of the horror stories of what other foreign teachers have done at other hagwons.
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What horror stories are there to hear regarding deaths in the family?
I've been here three years, and this is the first time I've ever seen anything about people taking advantage of that and screwing some hagwon in some manner. And the things I've read in this thread don't have any real-life examples of teachers running, cheating, or whatever to screw their boss using a "death in the family." All I see is heresay about "horror stories."
If such an event were commonplace, we'd have discussed it at length numerous times.
And it still makes no sense to me at all why anyone would bother saying they have a death in the family before doing a runner. I can see it would be a good excuse to quit and leave, but if you're leaving and not planning to come back anyway -- what's the difference? |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:46 am Post subject: |
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VanIslander, welcome back.
| VanIslander wrote: |
You got the time off you needed but have to forfeit two days' salary as a result. That's the upshot. And it ain't that bad.
Don't read too much into the interaction. Yes, there was some doubt expressed over whether you can be trusted, but I'm sure he's heard of the horror stories of what other foreign teachers have done at other hagwons.
He is the boss and your elder and a man. That makes him three times your superior by traditional mores. Korea may be a modern democracy but relationships are still largely based on older codes of conduct. Like it or not but that's the way it is.
You got what you needed, though not everything you wanted.
Let the guy feel like he's being responsible and limiting the (ab)use of such leaves from work (Koreans nearly die at work for their bosses - it's just what's done).
And move on. |
VanIslander, it's like you never left. Such compassion!  |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| VanIslander, it's like you never left. Such compassion! |
(I was gone for only six weeks, not six months!)
I am quite compassionate, even a "bleeding heart liberal" some say. I even took Conflict Resolution courses for a year.  That's probably why it's easy for me to sympathize with both sides of this. The op has already made the trip and doesn't need our moral support any more; unless we are to do the "yeah he's a jerk and let's resent his actions". I just suspect that an illness in the family has been used by many runners to excuse their pack and dash actions. I know of one case of it. Plus there's the other cultural aspects I've already touched on.
Be frustrated and struggle to get what you need. By all means.
But don't resent Koreans for being Korean and start throwing around judgements of what you expect they should be doing differently.
At least don't expect sympathy from me about it!
The longtimers are different, they having a vested interest in Korea, especially those who change their citizenship or at least marry into a Korean family. Be social activists, by all means. Encourage the locals to change by expressing your concerns, though often what's (mis)communicated is insensitivity and arrogance and rudeness toward their values and ways of life.
A major corporation back home is entirely in the right to require proof of a death in the family, and in fact I know my Canadian university was quite strict about it when a fellow student took a week and a half off for that cause.
There are extra cultural layers at work here in Korea, making his demands perhaps even more reasonable, from a Korean perspective.
Just get what you most need and don't sweat the small stuff.
Or be resentful and righteous and let it fester and grow.
Your call.
(I wouldn't be so bold in person, but I'd wish to convey the same points, more softly. Though often one doesn't say what one thinks on such issues, wishing not to upset the person involved. But that's how I see it. And if the op was a good friend I'd say so.) |
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Hagwon Muppet
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother. Try not to take things here too seriously- you have other emotional stuff to attend to.
I find it ironic how insensitive some Koreans can be about family matters, given the belief here that family is everything. And the issue of trust is a real pain. That is the one that hurts the most, to me. |
It sounds like the principal is well aware that a large number of foreign teachers are full of BS and will fake family deaths to get some leave or to do a runner.
I'm not for a minute suggesting this is the case here but its an unfortunate side effect of having so many unprofessional wasters teaching ESL in Korea.
The principal is a bit OTT here but maybe he got burned before. There is a real lack of trust in the Korean ESL industry but its a result of both sides.
Getting some people suggesting its revenge for a Korean boyfriend shows that ignorance works both ways. |
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crazylemongirl
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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There a couple of things that bother me about this.
First up I've been here year. I've completed a contract and even left he country and come back. I do a number of extra duties. I've never taken a day off for being sick and came to school a couple of times sounding like darth vadar in order to prove my loyality. So I think I've worked up a bit of good will.
This isn't the first time the school has said one thing and then at the last minute the prinicpal has come in and changed it. First up they said seven days. Then it became sevend days from time of death (despite the fact i worked two of them). I said I'd bring back a copy of the death notice and bought the original in as a nicety so that they could sight it. Demanding my only copy of the original is kind of uncool.
Also apparently this leave is being deduced from my summer vacation leave time. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Hagwon Muppet wrote: |
It sounds like the principal is well aware that a large number of foreign teachers are full of BS and will fake family deaths to get some leave or to do a runner.
... its an unfortunate side effect of having so many unprofessional wasters teaching ESL in Korea.
... There is a real lack of trust in the Korean ESL industry but its a result of both sides.
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At the risk of repeating myself:
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Very sorry for your loss.
What happened at school is a shame. It isn't your fault. It is the fault of midnight runners and bailers who cooked up fake stories of family emergencies. Their bad behavior contributes to making life rougher for the rest. |
Fine, but that doesn't begin to explain why I or my friends were all treated the same way. We're not teachers. So unless the antics of midnight runners in the ESL profession are influencing the attitudes of all Koreans in general (and this long before the ESL explosion), then who's really at fault here are Koreans who haven't the capacity to sympathise with or put themselves in the shoes of non-Koreans. |
Let me reiterate, in my workplace and (as far as I can know) those of friends, there were no precedents of foreign staff doing "midnight runs" or fabricating deaths in the family to weasel out of work obligations. And yet, we could scarcely have been treated any worse than we were, many of us. So, in fact, said my Korean coworkers and Korean friends (though the possibility exists that they saw nothing wrong with what happened, but were just conspiring to humour me.  )
What goes on or is feared to go on in the ESL industry in Korea had no bearing on how I and others were treated. It couldn't have, unless our bosses or minders were gazing into crystal balls which portended the coming ESL boom and a concomitant outbreak of "midnight running" and death certificate-forging and, fearing we might be a precursor of such antics, decided to stick it to us in the nastiest of ways and at the most heart-wrenching of times. As far as I'm concerned, that's not in the realm of possibility. |
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steroidmaximus
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: GangWon-Do
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Getting some people suggesting its revenge for a Korean boyfriend shows that ignorance works both ways. |
perhaps if you had been following CLG's story from the beginning, you'd understand the comment. This isn't the first time she's had trouble with her principal. |
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Hagwon Muppet
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| Hagwon Muppet wrote: |
It sounds like the principal is well aware that a large number of foreign teachers are full of BS and will fake family deaths to get some leave or to do a runner.
... its an unfortunate side effect of having so many unprofessional wasters teaching ESL in Korea.
... There is a real lack of trust in the Korean ESL industry but its a result of both sides.
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At the risk of repeating myself:
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Very sorry for your loss.
What happened at school is a shame. It isn't your fault. It is the fault of midnight runners and bailers who cooked up fake stories of family emergencies. Their bad behavior contributes to making life rougher for the rest. |
Fine, but that doesn't begin to explain why I or my friends were all treated the same way. We're not teachers. So unless the antics of midnight runners in the ESL profession are influencing the attitudes of all Koreans in general (and this long before the ESL explosion), then who's really at fault here are Koreans who haven't the capacity to sympathise with or put themselves in the shoes of non-Koreans. |
Let me reiterate, in my workplace and (as far as I can know) those of friends, there were no precedents of foreign staff doing "midnight runs" or fabricating deaths in the family to weasel out of work obligations. And yet, we could scarcely have been treated any worse than we were, many of us. So, in fact, said my Korean coworkers and Korean friends (though the possibility exists that they saw nothing wrong with what happened, but were just conspiring to humour me. )
What goes on or is feared to go on in the ESL industry in Korea had no bearing on how I and others were treated. It couldn't have, unless our bosses or minders were gazing into crystal balls which portended the coming ESL boom and a concomitant outbreak of "midnight running" and death certificate-forging and, fearing we might be a precursor of such antics, decided to stick it to us in the nastiest of ways and at the most heart-wrenching of times. As far as I'm concerned, that's not in the realm of possibility. |
I'm afraid that what goes on does impact you. There is a tiny foreign population in Korea relatively speaking. The majority of the white, western, english speaking section of that population are probably involved in education in one way or another.
If a sizeable portion of those people act in an unprofessional, untrustworthy manner then i'm afraid that shit is going to stick to you too. Stereotypes, rumors and idle chat travel quickly.
In a perfect world it shouldn't and wouldn't but in this world (not just in Korea) it does.
Of course your situation might be different. You might have just got an idiot for a boss. Every country has them too. Its difficult to say that one of 1000 reasons is the one in any particular case.
All I'm saying is that its very easy to point the finger at the boss and blame them but you have to accept that sometimes the employees don't help themselves.
Unfortunately what tends to happen is that the idiots get away scot-free and its the ones who are left behind that get the short end of the stick.
In this case it seems like CLG got that happening here. She did nothing wrong and yet the boss was suspicious. At the same time the boss is running a business and is within his rights to ask some basic questions if an employee asks for some unscheduled time off. I suppose it depends on how tactfully he asks them.
Incidentally, I wonder if some of the posters objecting to the boss not wanting to give her time off would be as understanding of a boss who asked a teacher to teach 3 extra classes a day and a weekend at short notice because one of the Korean teachers wanted to go home and spend time with a sick aunt? Its gotta work both ways surely?
As for your point about Koreans not being able to sympathise with non-Koreans.... well it certainly would be better if they could but you are in Korea, working for Koreans, etc etc etc their rules apply. Maybe its the fault of Westerners being unable to sympathise with Korean culture?
Arguments work both ways but nothing is going to change unless both sides start to shape up a bit. |
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Hagwon Muppet
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| steroidmaximus wrote: |
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| Getting some people suggesting its revenge for a Korean boyfriend shows that ignorance works both ways. |
perhaps if you had been following CLG's story from the beginning, you'd understand the comment. This isn't the first time she's had trouble with her principal. |
Regardless of what's gone before any suggestion that a boss querying a request for leave is part of a plot against the poster is illustrative of the problems we face on both sides.
It seems like everytime an employer does something we don't like its because they are racist, or an idiot, or hate foreigners, or don't understand western culture.
Sometimes I wonder how many teachers in Korea ever worked in a real job back home. This kind of stuff happens all the time and people get on with life. Here things get exaggerated somewhat by cultural differences and also the size of the requests.
Back home you might want an afternoon off to attend a funeral ... here its a week. |
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jaderedux
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Incidentally, I wonder if some of the posters objecting to the boss not wanting to give her time off would be as understanding of a boss who asked a teacher to teach 3 extra classes a day and a weekend at short notice because one of the Korean teachers wanted to go home and spend time with a sick aunt? Its gotta work both ways surely? |
I am well aware of this stuation and none of the teachers had to TEACH AN EXTRA CLASS...we have co teachers. The only thing the co-teacher will have to do is be in the classroom they had to be in anyway. AND BTW frequently when teachers have things to do I take classes by my self.
So this is not a very valid arguement. CLG works very hard at her school she never says no and was promised some extra vacation time in lieu of the fact she was going well beyond the call of duty. Sadly her G.M. died and even after calling her family and the fact she brought back a copy and original of the obit they have decided to back out of their agreement.
Yes we are in Korea. CLG speaks some damn good korean. Works at develoing relationships with her korean co-workers.
I know first hand of this situation and what they have done is underhanded and they have probably ruined a relationship with a great teacher that might have signed on for another year.
Again, not one of her teachers had to do any extra work. Basically they could catch up on classes and if they want have the students just study so they weren't breaking rocks while she was gone.
Jade |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hagwon Muppet, I am in total agreement with much of what you've said. It's easier to point out what I don't agree with, since those points are few. However, you might be missing the basic chronology of the events I describe.
| Hagwon Muppet wrote: |
| I'm afraid that what goes on does impact you. There is a tiny foreign population in Korea relatively speaking. The majority of the white, western, english speaking section of that population are probably involved in education in one way or another. |
Yes, you're talking about now, and I'm talking about experiences of expats that pre-date the ESL explosion.
Hard as it may be to imagine today, there honestly was a time when Korea was an almost "normal" foreign country from the expat perspective. A time when the majority of white, Western English-speakers here were not involved in English education. A time when soldiers, defence contractors, missionaries, ex-Peace Corps types, businesspeople, engineers, journalists, bankers, diplomats, students, smugglers, tourists and peg-legged pirates were the majority. I tell you, you'd go to these massive house parties -- easily 100+ people -- and those that were English teachers would almost be a novelty item. We'd go to nightclubs & discos anywhere in the city, and while many of the customers had to've been English teachers, we didn't know which ones they were. A wild concept to wrap one's head around now, I'm sure.
| Quote: |
| If a sizeable portion of those people act in an unprofessional, untrustworthy manner then i'm afraid that *beep* is going to stick to you too. Stereotypes, rumors and idle chat travel quickly. |
They do travel quickly, but they don't travel back in time.
| Quote: |
| As for your point about Koreans not being able to sympathise with non-Koreans.... well it certainly would be better if they could but you are in Korea, working for Koreans, etc etc etc their rules apply. Maybe its the fault of Westerners being unable to sympathise with Korean culture? |
I'd say its an absolute requirement for non-Koreans to "get with" certain "programmes" here. Personally, there are many things I've had to adapt to, some difficult and distasteful, others that don't matter much to me. But the formula for success, sanity and longevity in Korea (or any foreign culture) as a foreigner isn't to become a spineless contortionist -- it's knowing when to bend and when to stand absolutely firm.
Really though, the issue in this thread isn't mainly about cultural differences in how deaths or funerals are dealt with, but basic universal concepts like trust and sympathy.
Sympathy is the ability to put yourself in another's shoes. Koreans, I think, have a longer way to go before they can put themselves in a non-Korean's shoes than vice versa. Why? Because it's clear that Koreans have such enormous difficulty even putting themselves in other (less fortunate) Koreans' shoes.
Just as an example, you know how much Koreans hate their country's reputation as "leading baby exporter", right? The number of orphans adopted by families overseas was supposed to fall as the country developed and became richer, but it didn't. So the government stepped in to make it harder for foreign families to adopt Korean orphans, but the numbers are still very high. You know what? Maybe Korea wouldn't be the world-leading orphan exporter if more Korean people could try to imagine what it's like to be that orphaned child. But that would require sympathy.
Last edited by JongnoGuru on Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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