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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:45 am Post subject: The Myopic Left |
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Free-thinking Arabs refute all the premises of Western Leftists who claim that colonialism, racism, and exploitation have created terrorists, hold back Arab development, and are the backdrops to this war.
Indeed, it is far worse than that: Our own fundamentalist Left is in lockstep with Wahhabist reductionism — in its similar instinctive distrust of Western culture. Both blame the United States and excuse culpability on the part of Islamists. The more left-wing the Westerner, the more tolerant he is of right-wing Islamic extremism; the more liberal the Arab, the more likely he is to agree with conservative Westerners about the real source of Middle Eastern pathology.
The constant? A global distrust of Western-style liberalism and preference for deductive absolutism. So burn down a mosque in Zimbabwe, murder innocent Palestinians in Bethlehem in 2002, arrest Christians in Saudi Arabia, or slaughter Africans in Dafur, and both the Western Left and the Middle East��s hard Right won��t say a word. No such violence resonates with America��s diverse critics as much as a false story of a flushed Koran — precisely because the gripe is not about the lives of real people, but the psychological hurts, angst, and warped ideology of those who in their various ways don��t like the United States.
link
http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson061705.html |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm always curious when I hear or read a conservative saying the left excuses terrorism or doesn't care about mosques being burned down, or the slaughter in Darfur, etc. I mean, in what parallel universe are these people living? Call me when you find any American--left or right--who will say such atrocities are just fine by him.
In the meantime I'd like to address a few of Mr. Hanson's points:
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| Note how in this one Washington Post story how almost every one of our Western myths promulgated by the antiwar Left is shattered by a candid jihadist himself. First, there was always radical Islamic anti-American hatred that preceded Iraq. |
What leftist claims that such anti-Americanism didn't exist before we invaded Iraq? This is idiocy of the first degree. I don't have the energy right now to dig through his archives, but I'm sure Mr. Hanson was writing well before the Iraq war about what leftists were saying about Arab anti-Americanism.
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| Americans worry that captured terrorists have proper Korans and are allowed traditional grooming. Arab jailors immediately shave the traditional beards of those they arrest. |
I refer you to my post "The Right Question".
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| Both blame the United States and excuse culpability on the part of Islamists. The more left-wing the Westerner, the more tolerant he is of right-wing Islamic extremism; |
Again, what leftists are we talking about? Certainly none I can think of.
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| So burn down a mosque in Zimbabwe, murder innocent Palestinians in Bethlehem in 2002, arrest Christians in Saudi Arabia, or slaughter Africans in Dafur, and both the Western Left and the Middle East's hard Right won't say a word |
You know, I can distinctly remember so many conservatives, VDH included, telling us that leftists cared too much about Palestinians being murdered. Now I guess it turns out we actually don't care at all. Who knew?
Oh, and just what has President Bush done about Darfur lately?
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| So there we have a snapshot of 60 years of American efforts to rid Germany of Hitler, pour in Marshall Plan money, keep 300 Soviet divisions out of Germany, and convince skeptical British, French, and Russians to support reunification: In response, welcome in American popular culture as you damn the United States in the conveniently abstract. |
One of my favorite conservative tropes. My parents/grandparents fought to save you from the Nazis; therefore you should go along with whatever I say. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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the US has done more than anyone else about the Sudan
Who on the UN security council has done more?
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udan Rejects U.S.-Sponsored Darfur Resolution
Reuters
Wednesday, September 15, 2004; 9:37 AM
By Lucy Fielder
CAIRO (Reuters) - Sudan Wednesday rejected a U.S.-sponsored Security Council draft resolution to punish it over the conflict in the remote Darfur region, saying it was unfair and lacked balance.
The United States modified its call for U.N. sanctions against Sudan Tuesday, but kept up the threat of punitive measures if Khartoum did not act against atrocities being committed in Darfur. |
http://www.genocidewatch.org/SudanRejectsUNResolution15sept2004.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3918765.stm
Indeed France and China have opposed UN sancition on the Sudan
France opposes UN Sudan sanctions
The humanitarian situation is worsening
France says it does not support US plans for international sanctions on Sudan if violence continues in Darfur.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3875277.stm
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Again, what leftists are we talking about? Certainly none I can think of. |
the ones at ANSWER
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/50/news-corn.php
The ones at Counterpunch
they support the insurgents and anyone elso who is against the US.
http://www.counterpunch.org/smith01212005.html |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Free-thinking Arabs refute all the premises of Western Leftists who claim that colonialism, racism, and exploitation have created terrorists, hold back Arab development, and are the backdrops to this war.
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So all "free-thinking" Arabs support US policy in the Middle East? Who decides who qualifies for being a "free-thinking Arab"? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of it comes from notions of black or white.
Particularly, trying to black out opposition and whitewash themselves.
It is still "with me or against me" playground politics.
Hmm...58% of americans now oppose the war? NOW, go inundate them with your "support the troops" slogans and tell them to "love it or leave it".
Pointing fingers at liberals AFTER you won the election is a bit beside the point, wouldn't you say?
Sundub and Joo, don't worry about the lefties. You're in the good hands hands of the president you chose. The excellent times of the past four years are just continuing. Why don't you trump up some of the accomplishments? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Actually liberals (Al Franken David Corn ) while I don't agree with them love America but those at Counterpunch aren't liberals , nor do they love America |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:07 am Post subject: |
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I'm always curious when I hear or read a conservative saying the left excuses terrorism or doesn't care about mosques being burned down, or the slaughter in Darfur, etc. I mean, in what parallel universe are these people living? Call me when you find any American--left or right--who will say such atrocities are just fine by him.
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I like your phrase 'parallel universe' to describe these guys. It's apt. They seem to use the same words but put them in the wrong places, like this one by the OP:
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| fundamentalist Left |
What is so annoying is the word has a specific meaning and it just doesn't really fit. Another example is calling a leftist a 'nazi'. They twist and distort words so they lose their meaning. Very similar to how a communist uses 'democracy' in a completely different way.
A different thing they do that is difficult to address:
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The more left-wing the Westerner, the more tolerant he is of right-wing Islamic extremism; the more liberal the Arab, the more likely he is to agree with conservative Westerners about the real source of Middle Eastern pathology.
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They make outrageous claims without any kind of support or evidence. I find it hard to respond to a claim like that because I don't know which Westerner is saying what that the writer finds objectionable. I think what they are doing is this: (just change US to 'left')
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as you damn the United States in the conveniently abstract.
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Recently on another thread there was a good example of this. A poster complained that liberals defended Piss Christ, but when asked for one real source could not supply one. The same happens when they complain about a liberal bias in the media. The only answer is that the majority of reporters vote Democratic. Not the same thing.
I was waiting in the car the other day waiting for Mom to come out of the grocery store and happened to punch the radio and got Rush Limbaugh. As I've never listened to him before I left it on. He re-played the speech by Durbin of Illinois about the FBI report on Gitmo where prisoners were seen on the floor of questioning rooms, tied up, and the air con was turned low or off and loud music was played. Limbaugh turned this into scoffing at critics for not appreciating that the prison has air conditioning.
Do you remember Gilda Radner's character Emily Latella (sp?). Emily would hear one word and go off on a rant, completely misinterpreting the word. It was a great comedy routine. Talking to these right wingers feels like being trapped in a conversation with people who do what Emily did.
Hillary Clinton complained of a 'vast right wing conspiracy'. I'm not so sure she was wrong. I get the feeling that all the right wingers went to Gobbledegook University to get training in how to twist words, make unfounded generalizations and shouting at the top of their voices in fained indignation. It is indeed a parallel universe. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:19 am Post subject: |
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The ones at ANSWER
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/50/news-corn.php
The ones at Counterpunch
they support the insurgents and anyone elso who is against the US.
http://www.counterpunch.org/smith01212005.html
There was another article at counterpunch ( that I have to find) that it said something like progressives should not support the reformers in Iran because that would leave the region open to US imperialism.
And then there are jerks like Ward Churchill
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Churchill has written scalding essays saying that the victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks deserved to die. According to a former student, he made similar remarks at the time of the Oklahoma City bombing. |
http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_3525393,00.html
The article describes the far left in the US accurately. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Hillary Clinton complained of a 'vast right wing conspiracy'. I'm not so sure she was wrong. I get the feeling that all the right wingers went to Gobbledegook University to get training in how to twist words, make unfounded generalizations and shouting at the top of their voices in fained indignation. It is indeed a parallel universe. |
There's definitely a right-wing attack machine, but I really don't think Hanson is a part of it. I even agree with most of what he says in the article.
| VDHanson wrote: |
| Indeed, it is far worse than that: Our own fundamentalist Left is in lockstep with Wahhabist reductionism — in its similar instinctive distrust of Western culture. Both blame the United States and excuse culpability on the part of Islamists. The more left-wing the Westerner, the more tolerant he is of right-wing Islamic extremism; the more liberal the Arab, the more likely he is to agree with conservative Westerners about the real source of Middle Eastern pathology. |
I took the use of the fundamentalist Left here to be tongue and cheek. These Leftists (and I think he means only a portion of the Left: those Leftists who are fundamentalist) are fundamentalist only because they find common cause with the real fundamentalists in the ME. An unfair adjective? Perhaps, but I don't think its at all like calling North Korea the Democratic People's Republic.
That being said, I found this statement to be way off the mark:
| VDHanson wrote: |
| In reaction to that attack, the Shiite mob went out and killed six employees of a business owned and operated by a Pakistani Muslim. Follow the logic of the Middle East: When you are angry at your own for their murdering, and are too weak or terrified to do anything about it, go out and destroy anything remotely American-affiliated. |
I wish he would be more careful with his words. Suicide bombing is not the logic of the entire Middle East. Violent extremism appeals only to a few, it just appears that it appeals to a far higher number of Muslims than others these days.
| Hater Depot wrote: |
Quote:
So there we have a snapshot of 60 years of American efforts to rid Germany of Hitler, pour in Marshall Plan money, keep 300 Soviet divisions out of Germany, and convince skeptical British, French, and Russians to support reunification: In response, welcome in American popular culture as you damn the United States in the conveniently abstract.
One of my favorite conservative tropes. My parents/grandparents fought to save you from the Nazis; therefore you should go along with whatever I say |
That is really not what Victor Davis Hanson is saying. He is saying that it seems pretty ironic that after all the US has done for Europe (and fairly recently as well), the best a good many Europeans can do is succumb to this kind of stupidity: "a parade of protestors damn the militarism of the United States (a.k.a. "Top Gun") while a nearby TV blared accounts of a recent German mystery on state-run television, whose subtext was that the United States intelligence planned September 11 and blamed it on the poor jihadists."
I have a friend teaching English in Germany right now, and he mentioned how he is not impressed with some of the anti-American sentiment there. Apparently, it is largely the habit of the unthoughtful, and there's little effort that goes into deciding whether or not Michael Moore (or whoever else) is portraying America accurately but a lot of enthusiasm for nodding at whatever suggestion of how truly and utterly nefarious the US government is. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
What is so annoying is the word has a specific meaning and it just doesn't really fit. Another example is calling a leftist a 'nazi'. They twist and distort words so they lose their meaning. Very similar to how a communist uses 'democracy' in a completely different way.
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Many leftists are not above employing totalitarian means to impose their politically correct agenda. Stalin, Mao come to mind. 'Nazi' is not too harsh a word for those two monsters (though technically inaccurate).
In a way, you addressed your own concerns in the above paragraph. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Bush hasn't mentioned Darfur in public for, what, over 150 days now. The government won't use the word 'genocide', isn't pushing anything in the UN that I can remember hearing about. This is playing out almost no differently from Rwanda.
Bush is the American President. His words matter--a lot. Even if all he did was say, regularly and in no uncertain terms, that Sudan is raping, mutilating, and killing people--even if he stopped short of saying genocide--and that it has to stop, you would see the number of atrocities drop. If he went further and put his displeasure into practical terms--maybe by cutting aid to the Sudanese government, most or all of which is probably being embezzled anyway--you would see a lot more.
Bush could tighten their leash and improve our world image at little cost. Why he is choosing not to I cannot fathom, but please do not make excuses when plenty of people are doing real good. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
Bush hasn't mentioned Darfur in public for, what, over 150 days now. The government won't use the word 'genocide', isn't pushing anything in the UN that I can remember hearing about. This is playing out almost no differently from Rwanda.
Bush is the American President. His words matter--a lot. Even if all he did was say, regularly and in no uncertain terms, that Sudan is raping, mutilating, and killing people--even if he stopped short of saying genocide--and that it has to stop, you would see the number of atrocities drop. If he went further and put his displeasure into practical terms--maybe by cutting aid to the Sudanese government, most or all of which is probably being embezzled anyway--you would see a lot more.
Bush could tighten their leash and improve our world image at little cost. Why he is choosing not to I cannot fathom, but please do not make excuses when plenty of people are doing real good. |
You are right, on the other hand the US has spoken out about the Sudan more than any other nation in the world. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| Both blame the United States and excuse culpability on the part of Islamists. The more left-wing the Westerner, the more tolerant he is of right-wing Islamic extremism; |
http://clivedavis.blogs.com/clive/2005/06/wooed_by_wolfie_1.html
If you are an Iraqi liberal, you are more likely to get a fair hearing from The Daily Telegraph than The Independent, and if you are a Kurdish socialist you're more likely to get a fair hearing from Paul Wolfowitz and Tony Blair than Ken Livingstone and Tony Benn.
Say its not so. |
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