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Getting funeral leave - a rant
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casey's moon

Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: Daejeon

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject:

Quote:

the formula for success, sanity and longevity in Korea (or any foreign culture) as a foreigner isn't to become a spineless contortionist -- it's knowing where to bend and were to stand absolutely firm.

Wow! Nicely said. Very Happy

Derrek

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:35 pm Post subject:

Hagwon Muppet wrote:

JongnoGuru wrote:

Hagwon Muppet wrote:

It sounds like the principal is well aware that a large number of foreign teachers are full of BS and will fake family deaths to get some leave or to do a runner.

... its an unfortunate side effect of having so many unprofessional wasters teaching ESL in Korea.

... There is a real lack of trust in the Korean ESL industry but its a result of both sides.

At the risk of repeating myself:

JongnoGuru wrote:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Very sorry for your loss.

What happened at school is a shame. It isn't your fault. It is the fault of midnight runners and bailers who cooked up fake stories of family emergencies. Their bad behavior contributes to making life rougher for the rest.

Fine, but that doesn't begin to explain why I or my friends were all treated the same way. We're not teachers. So unless the antics of midnight runners in the ESL profession are influencing the attitudes of all Koreans in general (and this long before the ESL explosion), then who's really at fault here are Koreans who haven't the capacity to sympathise with or put themselves in the shoes of non-Koreans.

Let me reiterate, in my workplace and (as far as I can know) those of friends, there were no precedents of foreign staff doing "midnight runs" or fabricating deaths in the family to weasel out of work obligations. And yet, we could scarcely have been treated any worse than we were, many of us. So, in fact, said my Korean coworkers and Korean friends (though the possibility exists that they saw nothing wrong with what happened, but were just conspiring to humour me. Rolling Eyes

)

What goes on or is feared to go on in the ESL industry in Korea had no bearing on how I and others were treated. It couldn't have, unless our bosses or minders were gazing into crystal balls which portended the coming ESL boom and a concomitant outbreak of "midnight running" and death certificate-forging and, fearing we might be a precursor of such antics, decided to stick it to us in the nastiest of ways and at the most heart-wrenching of times. As far as I'm concerned, that's not in the realm of possibility.

Incidentally, I wonder if some of the posters objecting to the boss not wanting to give her time off would be as understanding of a boss who asked a teacher to teach 3 extra classes a day and a weekend at short notice because one of the Korean teachers wanted to go home and spend time with a sick aunt? Its gotta work both ways surely?

.

Getting time of for a death in the family is contractual. It's in my contract.

Working additional hours on a weekend at short notice is something that DOES NOT fall within the contract. In fact, the contract, by stating hours, tells exactly when they can expect me to work.

Getting time off for a death in the family is no favor. It's contractual.

Not even a close comparison!

steroidmaximus

Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: GangWon-Do

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:48 am Post subject:

steroidmaximus wrote:

Quote:

perhaps if you had been following CLG's story from the beginning, you'd understand the comment. This isn't the first time she's had trouble with her principal.

hogwon muppet said:

Quote:

Regardless of what's gone before any suggestion that a boss querying a request for leave is part of a plot against the poster is illustrative of the problems we face on both sides.

It seems like everytime an employer does something we don't like its because they are racist, or an idiot, or hate foreigners, or don't understand western culture.

Sometimes I wonder how many teachers in Korea ever worked in a real job back home. This kind of stuff happens all the time and people get on with life. Here things get exaggerated somewhat by cultural differences and also the size of the requests.

Back home you might want an afternoon off to attend a funeral ... here its a week.

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?p=518346&highlight=#518346

perhaps you should go and read the above. Can't believe I have to do your legwork, but anything to help people not look so much like an ass. I did make a flip comment, but based on what I know of CLG's situation from her posts, it would seem the principal is gunning for her. Asking for a copy of the death certificate is not unusual, but combined with everything else, it certainly causes the alarm bells to ring.

And of course, if the funeral was here, a day or two might be sufficient. Yet it would seem you've been fortunate to not have suffered a loss of that sort judging from your response.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:24 am Post subject:

JongnoGuru wrote:

Hagwon Muppet, I am in total agreement with much of what you've said. It's easier to point out what I don't agree with, since those points are few. However, you might be missing the basic chronology of the events I describe.

Hagwon Muppet wrote:

I'm afraid that what goes on does impact you. There is a tiny foreign population in Korea relatively speaking. The majority of the white, western, english speaking section of that population are probably involved in education in one way or another.

Yes, you're talking about now, and I'm talking about experiences of expats that pre-date the ESL explosion.

Quote:

If a sizeable portion of those people act in an unprofessional, untrustworthy manner then i'm afraid that *beep* is going to stick to you too. Stereotypes, rumors and idle chat travel quickly.

(1) They do travel quickly, but they don't travel back in time.

Quote:

As for your point about Koreans not being able to sympathise with non-Koreans.... well it certainly would be better if they could but you are in Korea, working for Koreans, etc etc etc their rules apply. Maybe its the fault of Westerners being unable to sympathise with Korean culture?

(2) I'd say its an absolute requirement for non-Koreans to "get with" certain "programmes" here. Personally, there are many things I've had to adapt to, some difficult and distasteful, others that don't matter much to me. But the formula for success, sanity and longevity in Korea (or any foreign culture) as a foreigner isn't to become a spineless contortionist -- it's knowing when to bend and when to stand absolutely firm.

.

(numbers are mine)

(pardon my editing job, but I just wanted to respond to a couple of points)

(1) Said couple of quick points. Expats that behave in a "unprofessional untrustworthy manner" are not now or have ever been limited to English teachers. To give just one example U.S. soldiers have been around a long time, and anything they ever did will get applied to us as well. No need to "travel back in time"

(2) I completely agree with this part of your post.

And CLG, my sincere condolences on your loss. I hope things are working out for you better now.

JongnoGuru

Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:08 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

(1) Said couple of quick points. Expats that behave in a "unprofessional untrustworthy manner" are not now or have ever been limited to English teachers. To give just one example U.S. soldiers have been around a long time, and anything they ever did will get applied to us as well. No need to "travel back in time"

Sure, English teachers have no monopoly on unprofessional behaviour in Korea. Nor do Westerners or expats as a whole for that matter, as the opportunity for Koreans to misbehave in their own country is obviously vastly greater.

But seriously, how much of a stretch are you making here with Korean employers being justified (if only in their own minds) in distrusting, disbelieving and disrespecting their foreign employees when it comes to bereavement leave? Some posters have contended that it's all (or mostly) due to midnight runners and other antics in the ESL industry itself. That is the contention that I've been addressing since page 1 of this thread, providing eyewitness testimonial that such rotten treatment is not only not limited to the ESL industry but largely predates it.

But what you seem to be saying is that Korean employers are ... in some sense weighing the misdeeds of all foreigners ever committed on Korean soil (hey, if US soldiers are a fair example, why not toss the Japanese & the Mongols into the equation too?), and that this damning total summation is being used to view and treat us all as shifty, unreliable and dishonest with specific respect to (of all things) bereavement leave. Talk about hurting someone's all-important kibbun... (And in the case of me and my friends, yes, it was specific to bereavement leave, not just one more manifestation of a pre-existing, free-floating, all-weather "dissing" of us as foreigners.)

I find that reasoning not just a stretch, but peculiar. No, at that rate, I'm afraid I'm more apt to believe the "time-traveling rumour" theory. Confused

Of course, I may well be misreading you completely. Embarassed

Last edited by JongnoGuru on Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

jaderedux

Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: Lurking outside Seoul

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:01 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Sometimes I wonder how many teachers in Korea ever worked in a real job back home. This kind of stuff happens all the time and people get on with life. Here things get exaggerated somewhat by cultural differences and also the size of the requests.

Back home you might want an afternoon off to attend a funeral ... here its a week.

Back home you can attend a funeral in a day if you live within driving distance. If you don't you are usually afforded 3 or more days.

1. When my father died...I was actually working a REAL JOB. They gave me a week and I lived in the same city. Since some of the people came to the funeral there was no question as to if he was dead.

2. Most REAL jobs in the west have a funeral leave depending on the family member. Death of a spouse down to uncles and aunts.

3. CLG FAMILY WAS NOT a simple drive away. She had to travel a very very considerable distance.

4. CLG is in her second year at the same school. She dresses very well and professional. The teachers at her school are very respectful and vice versa and her Vice Principal has thinks she can walk on water if need be.

5. To my knowledge SHE has never ever missed a day because she was sick. She goes to school as long as she can walk. She does things outside the contract to build good will. She never throws the contract in their face even though she frequently teaches more hours than the contract requires.

5. Her principal is an a$$. He promised that he would give her some leeway on vacation and now that this has happened he has reneged. He and I know him personally acts inappropriately toward her albiet mildly but still makes her uncomfortable. But she chalks it up to cultural differences and up to now has "just dealt with it".

Get over it....Get on with life....??? Sure in the west if the boss says hey don't worry I will take care of you on the vacation time...the contract says this but don't worry Hogwonmuppet you do great work. My hands are tied on the wording but we will take care of you...fast forward....Oh sorry hogwonmuppet your grandmother died so all bets are off! Sucks to be you!

Bullcrap! I don't know about you but I would smile politely and say I understand your position Sir/Ma'am but I am afraid I can't work for a company that would treat me in such a cavelier fashion and would take advantage of a situation that was beyond my control and so tragic as a death in my family. I feel I must find a company that respects my efforts and doesn't back out of agreements already made....verbal or otherwise....

short version: BITE ME I QUIT....

Yep Miss Jade has had some REAL JOBS....ALL OF THEM HAD POLICIES REGARDING FUNERAL LEAVE. Perhaps in some countries this is not the case but in the one I am from it is and always has been since I started working.

Jade one who HAS WORKED A REAL JOB OR TWO!

Alias

Joined: 24 Jan 2003

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:27 am Post subject:

crazylemongirl wrote:

I photocopied the obitury from the paper and gave it to my minder, which just mentioned that she died and who her family was and where the funeral was. I got my minder to sight the original.

I then was informed by my minder that apparently my principal is demanding the orignal copy of the paper for the school. This is my only copy of the paper and I'm drawing my line in the sand over this.

Did he think that your photocopy was a forgery? What a jerk.

The Lemon

Joined: 11 Jan 2003

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:07 am Post subject:

jaderedux wrote:

I know first hand of this situation and what they have done is underhanded and they have probably ruined a relationship with a great teacher that might have signed on for another year.

Jade nails it. Not only that, but I'd bet it's not making the administration look very good in the eyes of her coworkers.

Situations where the foreign teacher takes unfair advantage of a death back home are not unheard of - I know I've seen them. But it's clear CLG has not done that. She's done everything honorably. She should take her teaching talents where they're more appreciated.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:22 am Post subject:

JongnoGuru wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Of course, I may well be misreading you completely. Embarassed

Yes, you are. What I was saying was that every time a foreigner (teacher or non-teacher) misbehaves, it makes it that much harder for the rest of us. And I was using the U.S. Army (not the whole army, but a few boneheads) as an example as it has a rather lengthy presence here. I'm sure in all that history there must be enough examples of misbehaviour to make a great many Koreans wary of foreigners. Of course it could just be that you and your friends were working for jerk bosses. But there's no shortage of them in the Western world either...most just tend to be a little more subtle about it.

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