Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Medic]

Koreans don't have the respect for the law that most westerners do. The memories of their corrupt leaders still pervade all aspects of their lives. The law to them can be bent and gotten around not necessarily with money, but sometimes maybe with subterfuge. They have respect for the makers of the law more than for the law itself. They don't realise that laws can be made with the voice of the people, and that they can be analyzed through debate and discourse. This isn'tpart of their mindset. Laws to them are made by someone removed from them, and that they can be followed or not followed depending on their utility or how one feels about the instigator of the law.

Social interaction and resolving issues by confrontation is more to their way of doing things. The use of the police to solve problems is seen as a loss of face by most Koreans, because it is an indication that you weren't able to resolve the issue amicably on your own. Maybe that's why foreigeners get the short end of the stick if they are involved in a confrontation. They are seen as knda dumb, because they didn't find a more ammenable solution on their own. Even if the solution ment using physical force to solve the problem. You must use force if you have to, but you must win and then walk away. If you use force and don't come out on top or get force used against you then you are blamed for being ina position where you allowed someone else with force to get the better of you.

[Hanson]

Yep.

[noelinkorea]

I don't usually make that much of a habit of actually defending Koreans on this website, but for a change I might just give my two cents (ten won?)...

I agree with you that Koreans don't seem to possess the same regiditiy with respect to the law, and rules more generally. Anyone who has worked in a hagwon probably knows this - the boss always seems to say "please understand my situation", expecting you to be able to wait for two more weeks for your pay rather than the actual time agreed upon in your contract. Similar situations abound. Koreans generally prefer to adapt to an actual situation, in other words to relality, even if it means doing away with abstract rules and concepts which might in the end work better. II think this is why traffic rules are easily ignored, social relations and circumstances are ahead of abstract rules. Korean 'equality' is all about perceived (and highly subjective) equity. I can't say I always like this myself - being a 'Westerner', I'm accustomed to rules which allow circumstances to be anticipated...this isn't always so here, as you point out. I guess trying to anticipate how a Korean would see a situation (subjectively) before it takes place might help you to anticipate how to act...all sounding rather abstract now, sorry!

About confrontation and compromise, I recently read an article about North Korean and American issues... It pointed out that Koreans tend to view compromise as a weakness, not only a loss of face. It's all or nothing, essentially. We more Western-types would see it as mutual benefit, Koreans might see it more as the meaner kid get a bigger piece of the pie. Like cavemen, it's survival of the fittest. Force might be used, as you mention, to get their way, but it is still respected as far as I know. I sued the arse off my boss twice, and she was still kind enough to give me a lift down town and chat with me about life along the way. Just be firm, and a little obnoxious if need be, and the other person might not like it but will probably cave all the same.

[mal]

yep

[jajdude]

Westerners come from legal-based societies. Koreans are more emotional about it and see things in terms of being fair, whether or not 'justice' in their view is done. And I'm not sure about this, but the greatest stinks are often raised about foreigners. The two girls run over, and the US forces SOFA thing was a big deal. Koreans could not seem to understand the Americans, following what the law had already stated. They seemed concerned emotionally with "justice." A very different view. Similarly perhaps, they are very emotional about Tokdo. It is not a rational, legal thinking going on here. It's very emotional. And when it involves foreigners, the emotions run high.

Just my opinion.

[buymybook]

[Moldy Rutabaga]

[Edit]

[denverdeath]

[Len8]

Koreans are caught in no mans land with regards to laws. The politicians because of the confucian fileal piety and all that act as though they have a mandate from heaven when they pass new laws. I think that's why Kim Young Sam acted the way he did to push a bill in secret which eventualy precipitated demos and such before the IMF. The rest of the Korean population just accept that it's done this way.(conditioning from Chosun Dynasty days) That people here could impact on new laws through debate and such isn't yet a known part of their democratic rights.

They express their disatisfaction with the system in many different ways, the biggest of which is to interpret a law anyway they want if a situation warrants it.

[On the other hand]

Here's my take on it:

In Korea, deviance and criminality is more "mainstream", possibly thanks to the Confucian mindset of letting your elders and social betters get away with any old jerky behaviour. In the west, criminality has been more succesfully marginalized, but the criminality that we do get is generally of a more severe variety than what you see in Korea.

An example: one of my students worked the night shift at a convenience store, and told me that one night his boss' friend came in stinking drunk and asking for the boss. When the clerk replied that the boss wasn't there, the drunk proceeded to threaten the clerk, knock merchandise around, kick chairs over, and otherwise make a general jackass of himself. The student said he was at a loss as how to handle the situation, because the guy was older than him and he(the clerk) didn't feel comfortable telling an older person to just go *beep* himself.

Now, to a westerner, this seems absurd. In North America and Europe, drunks who go around randomly threatening people and trashing property aren't afforded any respect from society simply because they were born before everyone else in the room. But does this mean that such things never happen in the west? Hell no! People are assaulted and property trashed on a daily basis in our beloved homelands, in the form of muggings, armed robbery, etc. And I don't have any stats on hand, but I'd wager that crimes involving serious injury or death to the victim are far more prevalent in most western countries than in Korea. The difference being that the guy who smashes your skull in to grab your wallet in a back alley doesn't give a rat's ass whether or not you bow to him afterwards, because he feels no sense of connection whatsoever to the social hierarchy.

Am I saying that the Korean social system is better? Not neccessarily. Minor criminality can have serious repercussions if its widespread enough, whereas serious but marginalzied criminality effects only the people unfortunate enough to come into contact with it. It's a little like the difference between buying a house with a really bad smell in one room and buying a house with a slightly unpleasant smell in every room. Which one you prefer is probably going to depend on whether or not you're the person who has to sleep in the really smelly room.

[jajdude]

[ninjamonkey]

get physical?

do people actually get into street fights? (foriegners especially?)

[Freezer Burn]

Could it have anything to with 'fear' of the law.

In western countries and a lot of other hard-lawed countries around the world, we have an installed respect/fear of the law,(as bad western movie cliched as that sounds) we understand the repercussions of a criminal act, we know the law in our countries and we know the penalties, and are very much aware of this if we commit the act.
Are Koreans ignorant to this, in my opinion, I think so.
The soft crimes around Korea are staggering, it hasnt escalated into more major crimes (yet) that are prevelant around our countries, but that doesnt mean it has less of an inpact on social behaviour here in Korea, it means that it becomes accepted as part of normal behaviour.
Road rules, corruption, shady/dodgy business dealings, prostitution, drunken disorder, family violence these are all accepted in everyday Korean life, witnessed daily by visitors to their country namely us.
My opinion is, if the police were a force that demanded respect, not through force but through action and results then it may improve the softer crimes throughout Korea making it a really great place to live for Koreans.
Has anyone seen the way people argue and start throwing their weight around or punching walls when stopped by the police.
I've witnessed two police officers standing over a guy kicking his wife in the stomach with their hands behind their backs, only stopping because he had had enough.
Would this happen as much if the public actually respected the officers on duty?

[hellofaniceguy]

I'm looking out my window a few days ago.....cop...not the meter maid...but a cop writes a parking ticket....this car was parked on the sidewalk. Good enough reason for a ticket. While I'm watching...running up to the cop is a man and woman....man grabs the blue ticket off of the windshield...women argues with the cop while shaking her finger at him...man crumbles the ticket up and tosses it at the cop! Gets into the car and drives off! And the stupid ass cop does nothing!
Try that in Canada or the U.S and BINGO! Korean cops and most koreans are just...just....
well...you know the answer.