Korean Job Discussion Forums

[andrew]

.....

[Real Reality]

from the Chosun Ilbo (online newspaper)
A Country of Liars
In every country there are crimes that uniquely reflect its society. National Intelligence Service director-designate Kim Seung-kyu, in a lecture he gave late in May when he was justice minister, said: "The three representative crimes of our country are perjury, libel and fraud." In simple comparison, not taking into account population ratio, South Korea saw 16 times as many perjury cases in 2003 than Japan, 39 times as many libel cases and 26 times as many instances of fraud. That is extraordinarily high given Japan's population is three times our own.
The common denominator of the three crimes is lying; in short, we live in a country of liars. The prosecution devotes 70 percent of its work to handling the three crimes, the former justice minister said. And because suspects lie so much, the indictment rate in fraud cases is 19.5 percent, in perjury 29 percent and in libel 43.1 percent. "Internationally, too, there is a perception that South Korea's representative crime is fraud," Kim said, adding that recent major scandals show how rampant lying is in this country.

Lying is so common in our society because few recognize that it leads to crime. "What's wrong with telling a little lie?" they think. And here the big problem is that men of power, rather than ordinary citizens, indulge in lying on a massive scale, to the point where it is regarded as a necessary means of survival in some circles.

In Japan, children are taught from infancy that honesty and frankness are the highest personal values.... We, too, need nationwide education to foster a public perception that lying is a crime that degrades human nature and causes a plethora of social evils. We must thoroughly punish slander and deception of others
by Kim Dae-joong, Chosun Ilbo (July 3, 2005)
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200507/200507030027.html

from rapier (posted on Sep 15, 2004)
And, although many Koreans seem to hold the belief that your certificates become their legal property the moment you give them over, its not true at all..the only documents they actually require to hold for five years are those issued by immigration. Your documents are your own legal property and should be returned to you upon request, expect them back- don't give them up for lost.
So, don't suffer in silence people.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=26665

from EFL-LAW.org
[email protected] wrote:
How do you suggest that I get my parchment back from my boss

The question of why you gave it to him in the first place is irrelevant at this point, but don't even make an issue of him keeping it. Let him have it. Get another one from your university and use it as you see fit. Let him think he's got leverage over you, if you want, but it's pointless to get into a fight over it (over him holding onto your passport, yes; over your degree, not worth it).
--Boz
http://efl-law.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=157

[Mr. Literal]

[Gopher]

Play hardball: tell him he's stealing it and you're going to report it to the police.

If he starts talking and given excuses, interrupt him, tell him you're going to the police, and simply walk out.

If he doesn't get up and give you your diploma at that time, then do go to the police. Exagerrate the financial value of the diploma, claim you didn't understand the question if they question you about it later.

Also, don't work for this guy. He's trying to control you too much. Leave and go home.

I don't see how anyone really stays in Korea, based on the way these people tend to treat us as foreign laborers.

[Yu_Bum_suk]

What BS. Could you order another one from your university? You could consider just sitting at your desk refusing to go to class and teach until he gives it back.

Never give out the originals!!!!

[mindmetoo]

Clearly he's been burned by midnight runners before and he's doing something crazy like this. Your middle way solution might be to work for a couple months, establish a sense of trust, and then ask for it back again.

[Yu_Bum_suk]

[Dan The Chainsawman]

If the school paid on time, the conditions and hours were bearable, and the living arrangements were good, I would just order another, and not worry about it.

However, a point to ponder a friend of mind told me one reason you really don't want to give out originals is they keep them and then hock the diploma to someone else.

Is that true?

[kprrok]

Just tell him flat out..."That diploma is my property. If you don't return it to me by the end of the day, I will go to the police and report the theft. Or, I can "hold on" to some of your stuff for you so that it doesn't get lost."

If that doesn't work, sit at your desk the next day until he gives it back.

Taking what the chainsawman said a little further, order a new one from your university and tell him that because you assumed he had lost it since he wouldn't give it back, he has to reimburse you for the new one. Then inflate the price a bit to say 100.000 won or so.

It's utter bullocks that he won't give it back. Stand up for yourself and your property.

KPRROK

[peppermint]

ordering another isn't always an option. My university is extremely good about transcripts but flat out will NOT issue replacement degrees.

[joe_doufu]

Plant your feet, explain that it's not appropriate for him to take your diploma, and if he disagrees, yell at him. Koreans are Confucian, they value harmony over other values (like truth, prosperity, justice, liberty, kindness, etc). Yelling at him will be the ultimate loss of face for you and him both. But he will buckle. Being on the receiving end of openly displayed, justified anger will be pure mental agony for him. He'll give you the diploma just to make you stop.

PS: My school displays a framed photocopy of my diploma in the front office. If he just wants your diploma to show customers, offer to make a color copy for him.

[jjurabong]

As a newbie way back in 1996, I made the mistake of letting the office keep my original diplomas - and they "lost" them. My university doesn't reissue diplomas either, so now all I have are registered letters. Get them back as soon as possible. They are your property, and the risk of losing them is is too great.

[Derrek]

Come to work. Sit in the middle of the hagwon, and tell him you're not teaching another class until you get it back.

What are you, a freakin' owned child????

If they wanted to deny this and fire my ass over it, then fine. But I'd sit there in the hagwon until they either fired me or I got the diploma back.

Either you are fired, and free to go elsewhere, or you will get your diploma back.

Keep in mind that if they are like this, and are hard-headed, you don't want to work for them anyway. They will be like this all year long. Many Korean bosses often have this, "you are my employee -- I own you -- bow down to me" attitude. They will look for leverage against you in any way and every way they can. The bad ones really like to push it.

[pegpig]

I had a similar incident a few years ago. A few weeks in, I thot that immigration still had my documents. We were sitting together talking about some work details. The boss pages thru a stack of their papers looking for whatever she was looking for. Suddenly, she flips past my degree. It stuck out for obvious reasons, plus it's thicker (and not in its plastic cover ) I asked about it. She said I would get it back sooner or later. Sooner or later?! Apparently near the end of my contract. Whatever we were discussing was abruptly terminated. I stood up and stormed out on my boss and his wife and the person doing the interpreting. I went for a half hour walk or so - THOROUGHLY pissed off. Sooner or later my ass! When I got back to the hogwan she was ready with my degree and a very apologetic look on her face. I felt a little bad because they are actually very nice people and had had little experience with foreign teachers (I was their 1st full-time). I think that they were/are getting bad advice from some shady hogwan owner friends at other franchise locations.

Maybe a little scene is all you need. Just in front of the boss. If you do it in front of co-workers, that might just be a bit too much for their faces.

[Derrek]

Offer them a photocopy of your degree, and the option to order another one, along with transcripts, from your university at their expense. Have the new one sent to your home. Give them the old one when the new one comes. Keep the new one + transcripts in the envelope, sealed and unopened -- for later use when you go to another school.

If you get by with this, you have just gotten your boss to fund your new unsealed diploma/transcipts for next year.