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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| I think what we can't get our mind around is that some people don't seem to be able to distinguish between a small minority of people who are willing to kill and be killed and a huge majority that doesn't. |
Of course only a tiny minority are willing to kill and be killed. That is not the problem that the Islamic world presents. It is that the aims of the terrorists, namely the annihilation of Israel and the establishment of Islamic states and Shariah Law, if not their tactics, have widespread support. Until the ideologies that feed terrorism and Islamic intolerance are discredited (and this may be problematic as they flow directly from the Koran and Hadith) the Jihad against infidels everywhere, whether they be Hindu, Bhuddist, Jew or Christian will continue unabated.
Unfortunately, it will take more than the death of 50 in London to awaken Westerners out of their PC daze.
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| Rather than force someone to hire a lawyer to sue for the right to wear what you want, why not call of meeting with new immigrants and say, "Howdy. You have some customs we are not too familiar with. What can we do to make your adjustment here easier? By the way, the job office is two blocks over next to the post office. Have a nice day." |
More useful would be a meeting starting like this 'Hi, welcome to the West. You may not know this, but we do things a little differently around here. If you think you can continue to live as you did in ______, then you should probably reconsider living here. We don't wrap our women up in black cloths, and if you expect us to allow you to do the same to your women, in our public schools, the you should probably reconsider your choice of country. If you cannot handle people insulting your prophet, holy books and religion, then you should probably reconsider living here. However, if you are prepared to adapt, integrate and make a positive contribution to society then you are more than welcome!'. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| We're quite clear what it is to be British, or French, or German, or Italian or Spanish or Austrian or Swedish. |
Are we really? Most European elites explicity reject the notion of the nation state and most cannot even agree what it means to be European. The fact that many of them think that Turkey (a non European muslim nation) should be allowed to join the EU is evidence enough of this. Europe is a continent in the grip of a deep cultural and social malaise, with no pride in its own history or confidence in its values. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| We're quite clear what it is to be British, or French, or German, or Italian or Spanish or Austrian or Swedish. |
Are we really? Most European elites explicity reject the notion of the nation state and most cannot even agree what it means to be European. The fact that many of them think that Turkey (a non European muslim nation) should be allowed to join the EU is evidence enough of this. Europe is a continent in the grip of a deep cultural and social malaise, with no pride in its own history or confidence in its values. |
You think all Americans can agree what it is to be American?
All I can say is, I don't see the same Europe as you do. Walking the streets of a French city, or a German one, or a Finnish or Austrian one (the four countries outside the UK I've visited most recently) and you'd know full well a) which country you were in and b) be able to identify quite clearly that country's cultural make-up and to some extent its value system, too. Except for a few border areas, I can't see how you could confuse one with another. No pride? What a ridiculous notion. Try going to a cafe in Paris and being critical of the country, and see how many people join in... |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:55 am Post subject: |
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They want to kill us, and we are helping them.
What i can't get over is how NATO attacked Christian Serbia, thus allowing muslims to increase their territory in Eastern Europe. By July 1999 Serb troops were forced out of Kosovo, only to open an avenue for Albanian Kosovars to attack Serb Kosovars. The Albanian Muslims have since burned down dozens of centuries-old Christian churches. In an effort to establish a Greater Albania, Albanian Muslim rebels also launched attacks in Macedonia. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| What i can't get over is how NATO attacked Christian Serbia, thus allowing muslims to increase their territory in Eastern Europe. |
Such areas are now under increasing influence of radical Islam. |
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Hank Scorpio
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| They want to kill us, and we are helping them. |
One of the many reasons I was pissed when I was deployed to Bosnia, beyond the "This problem is in Europe's backyard. How is this our concern?" reason.
I know that the Russians were none too happy about it, and their soldiers were even more pissed off about it than I was considering they had no real reason to come down on the Serbs and probably even acted contrarily to their interests. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:21 am Post subject: |
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"Leslie Cheswyck" alluded to the Turks who got rid of their Greek menace in the 1920s without any "handringing" or PC concerns. "They just did it." Well, a few years before - in 1915 - the "Young Turks" of the Ottoman Empire ruthlessly schemed (complete with a convenient political cover of "relocation from a war zone") then brutally carried out a genocide to that rid them of about one-and-a-half million Armenians (out of a total population of two-and-a-half million Armenians) Even Hitler was inspired - his eventual chief political advisor was German consul in Turkey at the time and an eyewitness to it's efficiency. Reportedly, Hitler said to his generals on the eve of sending his "Death's Heads" units into Poland, "Go kill without mercy...who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?"
Actually, my maternal grandmother lost two of her children to starvation and a third to the "plague" as women with their younger children - systematically separated from their husbands and older sons - were marched to desert concentration camps. The Armenian men in the Turkish army were disarmed, placed into labor battalions and then killed. On April 24, 1915 all Armenian political and intellectual leaders were rounded up and then killed, and on the same day about 5000 of the poorest Armenians were hunted down and brutally killed on the streets or in homes. Ottoman officials who didn't comply with the extermination campaign were dismissed. Any common Turks who protected Armenians were killed.
Of course, most Armenians were (and are) Christians, but my grandmother and her three surviving children were saved by a sympathetic Moslem family that sheltered them for well over a year at great personal risk. My late Uncle "Avy" (who at age 5 also looked to be doomed by the "plague" until my grandmother heard "... the voice of God" telling her to scrape mold off a rock as a natural remedy - that pre-dated the discovery of penicillin by about 13 years...) noted there are good and bad people (leaders and followers) within every religion - and, regardless of our various religious, national and ethnic designations - we are all dependent on the mercy of God and people of good faith... |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Hank Scorpio wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
| They want to kill us, and we are helping them. |
One of the many reasons I was pissed when I was deployed to Bosnia, beyond the "This problem is in Europe's backyard. How is this our concern?" reason.
I know that the Russians were none too happy about it, and their soldiers were even more pissed off about it than I was considering they had no real reason to come down on the Serbs and probably even acted contrarily to their interests. |
The Serbs had considered themselves as the Christian bulwark against further Islamic incursions in Europe, and therefore could not understand why they were being bombed by fellow Europeans and Americans.
Its insane to realise that the west has been scoring own goal after own goal for decades now.. the concessions have been so thick and fast that we may soon find ourselves unable to regain ground.
France maintained order in North Africa until the end of World War II, when the anti-colonialist movement got underway. Both liberals and communists joined in forcing the European powers to give up their colonies. Today, the invasion has been reversed. Five million Muslims, mostly Algerians, live in France. They make up ten percent of the population and are part of the resurgent Islamic power in Europe. Christianity is now so weak in France that one wonders if it is capable of resisting the assumption of Islamic power.
In the eastern islands of Indonesia, for example, white-uniformed militiamen of Laskar Jihad are forcibly converting Christians to Islam. This campaign has cost the lives of 5,000 to 6,000 people. In Bangladesh, small radical groups supporting Osama bin Laden have bombed or burned down churches.
In Sudan, some estimate that as many as 2 million people, chiefly Christians, have been killed in a civil war fought by the radical Islamic regime in the North of the country against the non-Arab population in the South.
Although supposedly a religion of peace and tolerance, Islam is advanced and accompanied everywhere by violence and intolerance... and is now, after centuries of conflict with the christian west, finally making real headway. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| More useful would be a meeting starting like this 'Hi, welcome to the West. You may not know this, but we do things a little differently around here. If you think you can continue to live as you did in ______, then you should probably reconsider living here. We don't wrap our women up in black cloths, and if you expect us to allow you to do the same to your women, in our public schools, the you should probably reconsider your choice of country. If you cannot handle people insulting your prophet, holy books and religion, then you should probably reconsider living here. However, if you are prepared to adapt, integrate and make a positive contribution to society then you are more than welcome!'. |
Unfortunately, this IS the kind of meeting that was held and we see the results of it today. As Dr. Phil says, "How is that working for you?" He has a point. One good definition of an unhealthy adjustment to reality is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.
I'm with yoda. I have confidence in our values and life-style. Allowing a girl to wear heaps of black cloth to school in no way threatens me. My world view is not going to collapse. In a generation or two, her kids will fight the battles with tradition and maybe they will still eat with only their right hand but they'll blend in in all the important ways. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| Unfortunately, this IS the kind of meeting that was held and we see the results of it today. |
Care to elaborate?
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| Allowing a girl to wear heaps of black cloth to school in no way threatens me. |
Rather worrying that a liberal such as yourself has no problem with Western states acquiesing in the continuation of blatantly sexist religious practices. Always amusing to see how far liberals will go to sacrifice their own principles on the altar of 'diversity', forever turning a blind eye to the jew hatred and sexism entrenched in Islam.
It may seem irrelevant, but it is just one example of muslims being either unwilling or incapable of integrating into Western society. It is the thin end of the wedge. It signals a stubborn attachment to conservative Islam, and points toward a growing problem in the future some fifty years down the track. That is large, unassimilated muslim populations, sharing few values with the native population. Europe is storing up problems that will make Madrid and London look like minor incidents.
Last edited by bigverne on Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Although supposedly a religion of peace and tolerance, Islam is advanced and accompanied everywhere by violence and intolerance... and is now, after centuries of conflict with the christian west, finally making real headway. |
Indeed Rapier. Sad that people have been so brainwashed by PC multiculturalism that they cannot see the global jihad being carried out by the adherents of this intolerant faith all over the globe. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| It may seem irrelevant, but it is just one example of muslims being either unwilling or incapable of integrating into Western society. It is the thin end of the wedge. |
I too pine for the 'good old days' of White Anglo-Saxon Protestant domination- it's not just the muslims; there are far too many strange looking people running around here, and they frighten me.
Heck, even the police let coloured people join up these days!!!
Big Verne! My brother! I'm so glad this slippery slope has brought us together! |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Heck, even the police let coloured people join up these days!!! |
Please come back when you form an argument above the level of a 12 year old.
Yet another example of an American thinking that a poster is referring to his country. The world does not revolve around your nation, much as you might like it to. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Holy smokes, I knew you wouldn't like my post but I had no idea how badly you would fail to understand it.
And the gratuitous American bashing that you've thrown in is... some sort of bonus?
Not that it matters, but right now as I'm within eyesight of the Parliament buildings. So, um, which state would I be from then?
Last edited by Bulsajo on Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| There was very little to understand in your pathetic attempt at sarcastic wit. Once again, come back when you develop an argument that pertains to the topic at hand. |
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