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Gollum
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| deessell wrote: |
| I must say that when I was studying for my CELTA there was no way that I had enough time to be writing so much on Daves ESL cafe.......get back to work!!!!! |
Yeah, but I'm stretching this baby out over about 2 to 2 1/2 months. It's a "work at your own pace" thing. As long as you finish it in 6 months. And hey, I put 2 more hours into it today!  Back-off, mom.... and yes, I ate my veggies!  |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gollum wrote: |
The "accredidations" listed on the pages of the certificates -- even the CELTA -- are not really what I'd call legitimate at all, in my opinion. As EFL-Law states, the CELTA's accrediting council -- the British Council -- is a DE FACTO crediting authority.
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So even the CELTA, the most recognized and touted TESL/TEFL certification (at least around here) is accredited by an authority with no official or legal status. |
Seems like someone's a bit confused here. The British Council - the cultural section of the British Consulate - doesn't claim to accredit CELTA - they just offer the course in some countries.
Instead, CELTA is assessed and awarded by the ESOL section of the University of Cambridge Local Examinations Syndicate (UCLES), which is, *surprise*, a department of the University of Cambridge.
Note that UCLES is changing its name to Cambridge Examinations on the 21st of July.
http://www.ucles.org.uk/index2_html |
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Gollum
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Gollum wrote: |
The "accredidations" listed on the pages of the certificates -- even the CELTA -- are not really what I'd call legitimate at all, in my opinion. As EFL-Law states, the CELTA's accrediting council -- the British Council -- is a DE FACTO crediting authority.
...
So even the CELTA, the most recognized and touted TESL/TEFL certification (at least around here) is accredited by an authority with no official or legal status. |
Seems like someone's a bit confused here. The British Council - the cultural section of the British Consulate - doesn't claim to accredit CELTA - they just offer the course in some countries.
Instead, CELTA is assessed and awarded by the ESOL section of the University of Cambridge Local Examinations Syndicate (UCLES), which is, *surprise*, a department of the University of Cambridge.
Note that UCLES is changing its name to Cambridge Examinations on the 21st of July.
http://www.ucles.org.uk/index2_html |
You're confused?
Well, it's easy to see why. The point is that there is no accrediting authority. It's merely the school offering it and saying that they approve of it.
Accredidation should come from an outside source not associated with the institution providing the course. Otherwise, anyone can open a course and say, "HEY! It's accredited!"
So basically, you're confused and reiterating my original point. Whatever the British Council is is irrelevant -- the real point here is that the course is not accredited by any outside governing body, because there is none.
I'm not saying the CELTA is as worthless as anything else. I'm simply stating, as EFL-Law does, that there is no governing international body, or even a respected 3rd party, which accredits these things.
I'm sorry you were confused. Welcome to the club of teachers, schools, and students who wouldn't have the first clue. Personally, I feel most of these courses know full well that they are taking advantage of the confusion in all of this. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Gollum wrote: |
| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Gollum wrote: |
The "accredidations" listed on the pages of the certificates -- even the CELTA -- are not really what I'd call legitimate at all, in my opinion. As EFL-Law states, the CELTA's accrediting council -- the British Council -- is a DE FACTO crediting authority.
...
So even the CELTA, the most recognized and touted TESL/TEFL certification (at least around here) is accredited by an authority with no official or legal status. |
Seems like someone's a bit confused here. The British Council - the cultural section of the British Consulate - doesn't claim to accredit CELTA - they just offer the course in some countries.
Instead, CELTA is assessed and awarded by the ESOL section of the University of Cambridge Local Examinations Syndicate (UCLES), which is, *surprise*, a department of the University of Cambridge.
Note that UCLES is changing its name to Cambridge Examinations on the 21st of July.
http://www.ucles.org.uk/index2_html |
You're confused?
Well, it's easy to see why. The point is that there is no accrediting authority. It's merely the school offering it and saying that they approve of it.
Accredidation should come from an outside source not associated with the institution providing the course. Otherwise, anyone can open a course and say, "HEY! It's accredited!"
So basically, you're confused and reiterating my original point. Whatever the British Council is is irrelevant -- the real point here is that the course is not accredited by any outside governing body, because there is none.
I'm not saying the CELTA is as worthless as anything else. I'm simply stating, as EFL-Law does, that there is no governing international body, or even a respected 3rd party, which accredits these things.
I'm sorry you were confused. Welcome to the club of teachers, schools, and students who wouldn't have the first clue. Personally, I feel most of these courses know full well that they are taking advantage of the confusion in all of this. |
Derrek, the point is that CELTA, whether its being offered by British Council, International House, English First, Language Link etc, is EXTERNALLY assessed by UCLES, which is in turn a department of the University of Cambridge. A CELTA certificate has a great big UNIVERSITY of CAMBRIDGE at the top. Is that good enough?
More than that, I was talking to the AppLing Programme director at my university the other day, and he told me that CELTA may possibly exempt candidates from 15 points of a 180 point MA in Applied Linguistics (in NZ at least.) This is already done at some Canadian Universities, I hear.
In the end the issue isn't one of accreditation, but of recognition. Your certificate suits your purposes for your current position, but has a lesser chance of being recognised by any established school outside of NE Asia. I don't think that bothers you very much. It would be a shame in the future though, if your teaching experience and certificate leave you unable to find meaningful teaching work in other countries, should you ever want it. |
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Gollum
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Gollum wrote: |
| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Gollum wrote: |
The "accredidations" listed on the pages of the certificates -- even the CELTA -- are not really what I'd call legitimate at all, in my opinion. As EFL-Law states, the CELTA's accrediting council -- the British Council -- is a DE FACTO crediting authority.
...
So even the CELTA, the most recognized and touted TESL/TEFL certification (at least around here) is accredited by an authority with no official or legal status. |
Seems like someone's a bit confused here. The British Council - the cultural section of the British Consulate - doesn't claim to accredit CELTA - they just offer the course in some countries.
Instead, CELTA is assessed and awarded by the ESOL section of the University of Cambridge Local Examinations Syndicate (UCLES), which is, *surprise*, a department of the University of Cambridge.
Note that UCLES is changing its name to Cambridge Examinations on the 21st of July.
http://www.ucles.org.uk/index2_html |
You're confused?
Well, it's easy to see why. The point is that there is no accrediting authority. It's merely the school offering it and saying that they approve of it.
Accredidation should come from an outside source not associated with the institution providing the course. Otherwise, anyone can open a course and say, "HEY! It's accredited!"
So basically, you're confused and reiterating my original point. Whatever the British Council is is irrelevant -- the real point here is that the course is not accredited by any outside governing body, because there is none.
I'm not saying the CELTA is as worthless as anything else. I'm simply stating, as EFL-Law does, that there is no governing international body, or even a respected 3rd party, which accredits these things.
I'm sorry you were confused. Welcome to the club of teachers, schools, and students who wouldn't have the first clue. Personally, I feel most of these courses know full well that they are taking advantage of the confusion in all of this. |
EXTERNALLY assessed by UCLES, which is in turn a department of the University of Cambridge. . |
Yes, externally assessed by their own department. Thank-you for proving my point and illustrating exactly what I posted in previous posts.
Let's take a look at your quote. They set up a department with a couple of employees from their own school -- call them an "external" entity -- and then POOF.... "Externally Assessed."
Also arguing that CELTA has a big fat University of Cambridge name printed at the top does not make my argument wrong. My point is, and always has been, that there is no internationally recognized accrediting body for TEFL/TESL/TESOL certification. That is what is being discussed here.
I suggest you calm down. Check your CELTA pride. I'm sorry you are upset. If you have issues with how EFL-Law chooses to word their site, then I suggest you send them an E-mail about it.
Again, to quote EFL-Law:
"There is no world Accrediting Authority to say which TESOL/TEFL course is good or bad. The British Council is a defacto accrediting authority.
ANYONE can open a web site and offer a TESOL CERTIFICATE course - some apparent legitimate courses are operating out of Russia for example."
As for universities in NZ, well..... would never have an interest in attending school there. As for some Canadian schools offering points toward a degree: so what? There are a number of non-CELTA TEFL/TESL/TESOL courses which offer the exact same thing.
And as for your last paragraph, what countries outside of NE Asia would I care to teach in where I can only teach with a CELTA (unless I want to teach a few courses in Canada making less than I make here)? I didn't study to be a teacher, and if I desire to become one in a western country, I'll go get my teaching degree plus certification. I have no interest in tutoring a few students here and there for not a lot of cash. Seems to me that when a barometer is set by a country, they set it at having an education degree with certification to teach.
As much as some proud BA holders who took the CELTA would love to think, the CELTA is hardly a replacement for an education degree with teaching certification. No matter how difficult you found the CELTA to be, it is merely a 1 month course. Sure, you can learn a lot, but it's just one month.
Last edited by Gollum on Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Gollum wrote: |
Again, to quote EFL-Law:
"There is no world Accrediting Authority to say which TESOL/TEFL course is good or bad. The British Council is a defacto accrediting authority.
ANYONE can open a web site and offer a TESOL CERTIFICATE course - some apparent legitimate courses are operating out of Russia for example." |
In most professions, accreditation happens on the national or state level.
Who would expect a world accrediting authority? Would it be through the U.N.?
What could one expect? Such talk is gibberish. Think about it.
That aside,...
The fact is that the CELTA certificate course is widely accepted as credit towards advanced degrees by universities in a lot of countries, the DELTA even more so.
The course costs more than others because Cambridge sends someone with no vested interest in a given course to review the course, check the portfolio of written work and assessed teaching practice, ensure the lessons, teaching experience and tutoring expected according to CELTA standards are in place. That external assessor meets with the students as well, and fills out reports to Cambridge which might not be glowing for the particular course provider of CELTA because that assessor is paid by Cambridge not the course provider. All of this motivates the CELTA course providers to ensure their students get what the course is supposed to provide.
That's QUALITY CONTROL in an ESL certificate education industry rife with poorly run and meaningless programs not worth the paper they are written on.
There are other good programs, but it can be hard for employers to quickly distinguish facts from b.s. The CELTA is a quick and ready way to do so. It's not perfect and it's not the only way. |
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Gollum
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Anyway, your CELTA will help you get a job here in Korea.
Cost: $1500 plus airfare.
An online course will also help you get you TEFL/TESL/TESOL certified to get a job here in Korea.
Cost: $295+.
Do you learn more from the CELTA? Sure! Of course! Why not? Is it more worthwhile? You bet! You paid a lot more money and gave up a month of your life, but it's definately more worthwhile (for teaching adults, mostly).
Is it necessary to teach here? No. 99% of Korean employers out there wouldn't know the difference, or care. Scan the job ads. For all but a very few, you'll see something like: TEFL/TESL/TESOL certified.
If you want to run away to podunk hometown in Canada, teach terrorists in England, or teach korean kids at some nook in NZ, then yes, the CELTA will help you more than having a simple online TEFL/TESL/TESOL certification. |
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butter808fly
Joined: 09 May 2004
Location: Northern California, USA
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Gollum wrote: |
Anyway, your CELTA will help you get a job here in Korea.
Cost: $1500 plus airfare.
An online course will also help you get you TEFL/TESL/TESOL certified to get a job here in Korea.
Cost: $295+.
Do you learn more from the CELTA? Sure! Of course! Why not? Is it more worthwhile? You bet! You paid a lot more money and gave up a month of your life, but it's definately more worthwhile (for teaching adults, mostly).
Is it necessary to teach here? No. 99% of Korean employers out there wouldn't know the difference, or care. Scan the job ads. For all but a very few, you'll see something like: TEFL/TESL/TESOL certified.
If you want to run away to podunk hometown in Canada, teach terrorists in England, or teach korean kids at some nook in NZ, then yes, the CELTA will help you more than having a simple online TEFL/TESL/TESOL certification. |
Like I said, Derrek, PELT seems suitable for your ambitions and abilities. And, indeed, there have been times where running away to teach Korean kids in some little nook has been attractive - perhaps this isn't why you're not working in media anymore? |
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Gollum
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Gollum wrote: |
Anyway, your CELTA will help you get a job here in Korea.
Cost: $1500 plus airfare.
An online course will also help you get you TEFL/TESL/TESOL certified to get a job here in Korea.
Cost: $295+.
Do you learn more from the CELTA? Sure! Of course! Why not? Is it more worthwhile? You bet! You paid a lot more money and gave up a month of your life, but it's definately more worthwhile (for teaching adults, mostly).
Is it necessary to teach here? No. 99% of Korean employers out there wouldn't know the difference, or care. Scan the job ads. For all but a very few, you'll see something like: TEFL/TESL/TESOL certified.
If you want to run away to podunk hometown in Canada, teach terrorists in England, or teach korean kids at some nook in NZ, then yes, the CELTA will help you more than having a simple online TEFL/TESL/TESOL certification. |
Like I said, Derrek, PELT seems suitable for your ambitions and abilities. And, indeed, there have been times where running away to teach Korean kids in some little nook has been attractive - perhaps this isn't why you're not working in media anymore? |
Other than teach, what else can you do? Gay porn? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Well, ain't this an interesting thread!! I have the PELT at home, having been a trainer for TEFL International - which is the same as International TEFL corp... there are a number of different designations for what is essentially the same company. Phuket is simply one of the TEFL International sites.
The PELT, for what it's worth, has hopefully been updated (but I'd doubt it). The quality of the videos is remarkably poor if not updated. Watching them on a TV versus the computer does help. Good luck hearing the trainees voices, though...
I cannot stress enough that an on-line cert is pointless. You don't need a tutor to write "good job" on a paper and mail it back to you to learn anything. (I'd suggest that if that's all you're getting on your work, your tutor probably needs tutoring.) Without the opportunity to discuss things with other trainees, to get intensive feedback from a trainer and without ANY observed teaching.... you are wasting your time. May as well be reading the books on teaching and linguistics already out there. In other words, why do you need a tutor to read a book? Without the observations and feedback that's all you are doing. And TEFL Internationals program is far less rigorous than Trinity or Cambridge.
And what about the insights shared in class? What about the anecdotes? You'd be surprised how much the experience of the trainer comes into play in a good certificate course. If they have any, that is.
And who, pray tell, is your tutor? Given what we all know about about the immigration situation in Korea it would be very, very unlikely that your dreadlocked trainer is working legally for TEFL. TEFL got them a visa? Is TEFL even properly registered in Korea as a company? If so, what kind? I'd love to see your tutor's passport.
When the situation changes in Korea you may be one sorry puppy. Even if they will accept TEFL Intl's certificate, they won't be accepting the PELT! Which means you will have to pay TEFL for the full course one way of the other.
The newly updated Smooth Moves has finally done away with all the repetition in the course text, at least.
Lordy....
EFLtrainer
www.geocities.com/killiankob/tefl.html |
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Gollum
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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I am not taking TEFL International's PELT. I felt no need to spend $900 on it, per your recommendation.
Because I'm paying for this course myself, and because I am merely satisfying a requirement by my boss and Kyonggi due to the vacation time I am receiving, I chose the online course I am taking. My course is accepted by my governing school body.
Cost: $295.
To quote EFL-Law again:
"You should also determine if that certificate is accepted by the Governmental Education Authority of the country you wish to teach in. Few countries require this certificate for you to teach there.
Before undertaking any course, ask the question:-
(a) Is this course really necessary {a few EFL/ESL countries do require a recognized certificate}
(b) Is the Certificate recognized in the country I am going to?
(c) Is the Certificate recognized or even required by my prospective employer?
(d) Am I buying a Certificate for the sake of having one, or am I learning something practical that will help me teach and advance my skills.
(e) Does the course have an ironclad money back guarantee should you decide to withdraw or find the course to be substandard.
In most cases, you will find that if you have a University degree, you do not need the Certificate as you will get on the job training - but confirm this with your employer to be."
So, with that said, is the course recognized by my employer (Kyonngi and my school)?: YES
My boss told me to get a TEFL/TESL/TESOL this year. I don't have enough vacation time to get a CELTA during the times and at the locations where it's offered. I could have completed a university TEFL program from Sookmyung women's university, however it is over $3000 and I would have to give up most of my evenings for a 4 month period. Seeing that i teach evening classes at my school, I would also lose at least that much again in pay. Not worth it.
If the Korean gov't decides to discount online courses overnight, then for the mere $295 I spent on this course, I will accept that. It is accepted for now. Oddly enough, I have a difficult time believing the Korean gov't will discount all online certifications due to the fact that so many of my Korean collegues study online with EBS, and the education dept. is pushing so hard for them to extend their education this way.
But, if my online certification is discounted somehow, then fine. I'm only out $295, and it bought me another 2 months of vacation time this year. If, and up until that point, I don't plan on telling any future employers that it was an online course unless asked (should I bother to stay in teaching, that is). My certificate doesn't say, "online" either. It is the same certificate given if you take the course on-site.
Furthermore, if I wish to add actual on-site observed hours to my certificate, I can do so in the future for $400 per week of observed courses at TEFL International (the company that runs mine is affiliated with their Phuket branch). By the way, my trainer is Alex Strachan, and they have a live online feedback forum where he or an associate will jump on to answer your questions. I have used this, and it works. Is it equal to a classroom situation? No. I wouldn't pretend it is.
Also, I don't pretend that my certificate is better than or even equal to the education I would receive if I were taking an on-site course, just as a person taking a TEFL/TESL/TESOL 1-month course should not pretend that their education is equal to an actual full degree plus certification to teach English.
But for now, my course costs $295 instead of $1500 plus airfare and housing. My course is accepted. I can fit in into my schedule.
Not a bad deal, in my book. And I can always expand it later.
The thing that puts me off on these TEFL/TESL/TESOL courses is the hysteria that they seek to create among employers and countries -- just so that they will become a requirement -- so they can gain a larger student base in the future.
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Other than teach, what else can you do? Gay porn? |
All kinds of porn, Powershot. |
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Gollum
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Other than teach, what else can you do? Gay porn? |
All kinds of porn, Powershot. |
And that name means what to me? |
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ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Gollum wrote: |
If you want to run away to podunk hometown in Canada, teach terrorists in England, or teach korean kids at some nook in NZ, then yes, the CELTA will help you more than having a simple online TEFL/TESL/TESOL certification. |
Well, if you want to teach in Europe, you'd better have the "real thing". They're pretty serious about it there.
Your reasons for doing the on-line cheap course are totally understandable in the Korean context. I guess it boils down to "What do you want from the course and how much are you willing to pay?"
I REALLY wanted to improve my teaching skills, so I did the on-site CELTA course. If I just wanted the piece of paper, I would have gone the on-line route. THIS IS NOT A CRITICIZM, JUST AN OBSERVATION! To teach in Korea (at this point) you don't need any type of experience or credentials. If you want to teach in Europe, however, they DO require an on-site course. |
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