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WARNING:Western Women are 2nd Class Citizens in Daegu
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MonLMari

Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Location: Where the grass is greener

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject:

Ouch! I think you shrunk my head I agree with your point about acting PC to the point of indulgence - which happens alot on Dave's it seems. But I also think that type of behaviour may fade when more life is experienced.

Howard Roark

Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject:

just because wrote:

Daegu is the exactly the same as any other Korean city.......

So i gather the Korean experience is a bit of a downer??

Korea may be small, but there are still regional differences. I think these differences are often not apparent to us as non-Koreans.

I lived in Gumi City for 2 years. Gumi is about 30mins from Daegu, in the same province of Gyeongsanbuk-do. This region is considered to be exceptionally old-fashioned and closed minded.

After living in that area, even I could pick up on the differences in people's attitudes when I came to Seoul - the amount of staring, for example, is much worse in the Daegu area. Even though it is also a large city, it is not very cosmopolitan. Another example is women smoking in public. I see this quite often in Seoul, but in Daegu/Gumi, almost never in two years. I even had strangers come up and give ME a lecture about smoking!

I can't say I felt more like a 2nd class citizen there than I do here. But I will say all Korean cities are not the same.

PolyChronic Time Girl

Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Location: Korea Exited

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject:

For the most part, I feel very comfortable and safe in Korea. But I had a harrowing bus ride today that truly pssed me off. I was taking a bus back to Cheongju today and it was empty. I was sitting in the back and this subhuman dirt-flea Korean ajeoshi moved from his place in the front to the seat beside me. He starting saying "Oh, Pakistan girl. How much?" Then he proceeds to take out money, chuckling "Pakistan girl discount!" I was floored and pssed!! Lately I've been getting more harrassed since my skin tanned up. I think some Korean ajeoshis are even worse to non-white women because they think they're "cheaper." I called him a " Pyongtae, Kay-say-gee"(pervert son-of-a-bitch) and pushed past him and sat really close to the bus driver, on the verge of tears. Anyway, I'm trying not to let this ruin my day. My wedding ceremony is this this Sunday and I'm trying to stay focused and positive. And there are many good Korean men out there, But lately I have become a freak magnet. Maybe the sun is making some of them crazy.

periwinkle

Joined: 08 Feb 2003

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject:

I would've taken the money, thrown it back in his face and spit on him. Or just taken the money. He needs to be taught a lesson. F-head.

chronicpride

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject:

Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote:

chronicpride wrote:

periwinkle wrote:

She got assaulted. Twice. I would lash-out, too. I can't believe she isn't getting any sympathy. That was her experience in Daegu, and she's just trying to warn other women and vent. There isn't any recourse for that type of behavior here, so what else can you do? Vent on Dave's; drink yourself silly; blow-off steam at the gym, etc.

It's not fun to feel victimized. I'm really sorry those things happened to you. Glad you kicked the guy's butt! Wink

All of that is totally inconclusive and we have one vague post to go off of. She might be a lunatic. She might have anger management issues. We have no idea other than the small post that she made. Just because she is a foreigner doesn't mean that I'm going to rally to whatever she says. Especially when she flies off the handle and launches irrationally into the entire male population of Daegu and male foreigners. Let's not forget how many wacked and full of #### foreigners have been and can be, whether they've been exposed on here by the board or when you realize it when you are sitting across from someone at a bar and listening to them.

Here's the deal, Chronicpride. Many Gen-X Westerners spent a good part of the 1990's exposed to the phenomenon that the media labelled "Political Correctness". They listened, they pondered, they debated, and - ultimately - they decided which rules to follow and where to draw the line. After all, in principle, PC was an excellent thing. Respect for other races, respect for the lifestyles and sexual preferences of others, gender equality, these were all essential issues that deserved more attention than they had recieved in the past. However, some were put off by the more extreme, preachy examples of PC (undoubtedly blown out of proportion by the media), and drew the line at various points on the ideological spectrum. Nonetheless, most sensible, educated young adults of that generation accepted a commonsense interpretation of PC.

Now fast-forward to the 2000's. Thousands of those very same Westerners arrive in East Asia to teach English. What most of them encounter - including those in South Korea - is a culture that, to put it bluntly, hasn't got around to inventing PC yet. Now, understandably, many of those Westerners are going to be a little miffed at being exposed to a culture and a value system that contradicts what they have been taught for all of their adult life. More to the point, the fence-sitters - the Westerners who were put off by the preachers and subsequently became a little cynical of PC - suddenly look around themselves and think: "Hmmm ... if this is a culture that has never heard of PC, then perhaps PC was onto something after all!" Thus Korea does something that Western talking heads and frivolous lawsuits could never achieve. Rather than putting one off by providing an overdose of PC, it actually makes one appreciate PC more simply by demonstrating its complete absence.

Considering that Westerners were spoon-fed a lot of feminist anger throughout the 1990's (Ban American Psycho! Ban Silence of the Lambs!), I think it's only fair that those same Westerners should dish out a more moderate version of that same anger while living in a culture that badly needs it.

Or are you against preaching and anger in principle? Laughing

The worst thing that could happen, IMHO, is that we become so blindly "tolerant" of other cultures that we also become "tolerant" of their blatant xenophobia and mysogyny - to the point of implicitly defending it. In other words, the PC serpent swallowing its own tail. Those who do not realize this are simply the proverbial amphibians who have spent far too long in the boiling pot.

Just because I'm taking a strong counter-argument against wild discriminatory comments against a large group of people, does not make me PC or blindly tolerant to the faults of this culture. Yes, there are many in Korea that have a lot to learn in many regards as far as meeting the idealism of the Western societies that we come from and what we expect from others that we meet. Taking over-the-top discriminatory comments in this fashion, is NOT the answer. Saying broad-based remarks like this against 2.5 million men, based on one's handful of experiences, is totally ignorant. Period.
Anyone openly subscribing to one's extremely vague accusations and zero evidence to support the broad-based discriminatory comments is equally ignorant.
History never fails to repeat itself on this board and after teacher's stories on here have been later discovered to be embellished, fabricated, and/or falsified altogether, there's not one bit of caution being exercised before lapping up the OP's very vague comments supporting her over-the-top bigotry. Maybe it's just me, but I feel frustrated when I see foreigners on here reduce themselves to the same bigotry that they love to accuse Koreans as having.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject:

Barking Mad wrote:

Quote:

Considering that Westerners were spoon-fed a lot of feminist anger throughout the 1990's (Ban American Psycho! Ban Silence of the Lambs!), I think it's only fair that those same Westerners should dish out a more moderate version of that same anger while living in a culture that badly needs it.

Well then by the same token a Korean living in North America could say:

"It's only fair that Koreans, who have been spoon-fed a lot of Confucian ideology for their entire lives, should dish out a more moderate version of Confucianism while living in a country that badly needs it".

But of course if a Korean did say that and then went around London or Chicago lecturing people on how juniors aren't paying proper respect to seniors over here, he'd be told to go *beep* himself in short order. And I'd be the first person telling him to do so, not because I think western values are objectively superior but just because they're the values that I and most of my friends prefer.

All that said, Barking Mad, I think the rest of your post is the best description I've ever read of the cultural dynamics at play in the current generation of ex-pats in Korea.

Manner of Speaking

Joined: 09 Jan 2003

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:13 pm Post subject:

desultude wrote:

My students told me a story in camp this summer about Daegu men. I was pretty shocked, as the class had a number of Daegu (young) men in it, and they laughed and readily agreed.

"A young woman runs along the beach and calls to her boyfriend, 'catch me', the boyfriend takes chase and calls back 'I will kiss you'. Another young woman does the same, and the man calls back 'I will kill you'. The first man is from Seoul, the second is from Daegu."

It's actually a poor translation of a Korean joke...it's supposed to illustrate the differences between Kyongsang Province men and Seoul men, the former being a lot tougher and far less romantic. I don't think its meant to be taken literally. Laughing

As a western male that has lived in Gumi and Daegu for 6 years, and has also lived in Pusan, Seoul and Cheolla Province, I do notice a difference in Kyongsangdo namjas. They do seem to be a bit tougher, but also more friendly and honest. I find Seoul people are the hardest to make friends with, they really keep their distance in relationships (IMHO).

I also think it's sexist to stereotype all Daegu men and all Daegu-resident foreigners, but when you are harassed or physically assaulted, it's a little difficult to keep an open mind or bend over backwards to be evenhanded. So the comments, even if I discreetly disagree with them, are understandable.

Personally, I've always practiced the pedestrian equivalent of "defensive driving". If I'm out walking, especially at night, and I see a single ajoshi or group of ajoshis coming towards me, I check them out from a distance to see if they could be a health hazard. Any drunk male staggering in my direction -- ANYone drunk or even the slightest bit tipsy -- gets a huge detour. Because if he's in the mood to be aggressive he's going to pick on you, just because you look different. If somebody stands too close to me on the subway, or looks like they're getting ready to get something going, I move to another car. Period. Life's too short.

As a result, in 6 years of living in Korea I've never been swung at or in any way accosted. Though I believe it and sympathize when people tell me they've been attacked.

denverdeath

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:43 am Post subject:

chronicpride wrote:

Yu_Bum_suk wrote:

I think I'm glad I won't be spending a year right here in the city centre, lol.

FYI- DongDaegu station=East Daegu station.

I lived in Dae-goo. Actually, near the LPG station in Dong-dae-goo. Dong-dae-goo-yuhk is 5, maximum 10, minutes from downtown; at least when I lived there it was. Close enough to downtown, I think.

Back to the topic at hand. I mainly have fond memories of Dae-goo. It was the first place I was in in Korea and I had an excellent year there and have been back since to visit friends and a brother-in-law who did his military service at Camp Walker. However, I can remember three related incidents from the time I was there. The first one occurred when about 30 of us were at "Peace Market" chowing down fried chicken asses and swilling down some beer. One of the foreigners who was leaving soon had an argument with a student. This was a student whom he thought he liked and trusted. The argument arose basically because the Korean guy rudely told the foreigner's Korean girlfriend, "You are Korean! Speak Korean!" Probably the beer talking with that one, but it put a real damper on the festivities. The second was when a new female co-worker and I were leaving the hakwon where we worked to get a bus home. The girl bent over to lace up her sneaker when some creepy ah-juh-sshi came up behind her and gave her a bit of a pelvic thrust. She, and I, were completely shocked by this f*ck's behaviour. Maybe he thought he was doing his best at wooing the girl because his next move was to say, "Drinky, drinky," while giving us the body language for said activity - he either thought we were really stupid or realized that his English was really sh*tty. Got rid of him quick with a finger pointed right in his face followed by asking him what the f*uck he thought he was doing and a nice "GAH!" She was a bit shaken by the utter rudeness of the whole thing and ended up leaving after only four months here because of a much worse incident involving a foreign co-worker/roommate. The final example occurred when my ex was walking down a side street in her neighbourhood to get a bus to her university. She was repulsed by a slimy ah-juh-sshi who had his pants at his ankles and was w*nking his weasel behind the double-glass doors of a nearby "Villa" while grinning and staring at her. I've heard lots of stories and seen a few incidents myself in Dae-goo; but, I have to admit that the same things could've happened in any city in Korea and elsewhere.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:54 am Post subject:

Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote:

Now fast-forward to the 2000's. Thousands of those very same Westerners arrive in East Asia to teach English. What most of them encounter - including those in South Korea - is a culture that, to put it bluntly, hasn't got around to inventing PC yet.

It's worse than that. They haven't been through indigenous rights movements (but how could they have?), or the civil rights movements of the 1960s, and the sexual revolution and various equal rights movements of the 1960s and 1970s.

Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote:

It's not just us but them, too. NonWestern peoples and cultures and underdeveloped Western peoples and cultures tend to run away with our PC ball and refuse to recognize that some things are indeed universal.

Think cultural relativism will lead to a better world? Consider this Maori informant explaining his peoples' conquest of the Moriori in the nineteenth century:

"We took possession...in accordance with our customs and we caught all the [Moriori] people. Not one escaped. Some ran away from us, these we killed, and others we killed -- but what of that? It was in accordance with our custom?" (Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel, pp. 53-54.)

What kind of sympathy could any PC person expect from a people such as this? Reciprocal cultural sensitivity and tolerance?

A lot of peoples and cultures in the world -- certainly Koreans -- are a lot like this Maori informant in this respect.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:59 am Post subject:

Manner of Speaking wrote:

Personally, I've always practiced the pedestrian equivalent of "defensive driving". If I'm out walking, especially at night, and I see a single ajoshi or group of ajoshis coming towards me, I check them out from a distance to see if they could be a health hazard. Any drunk male staggering in my direction -- ANYone drunk or even the slightest bit tipsy -- gets a huge detour.

I take the same precautions. And in five years in Chile and Brazil, I've only been the victim of one unavoidable hotel room theft, and one very skilled pickpocket at Carnival. But I've never been involved in any street altercations. Like you say, life's too short to be wandering around oblivious to your immediate surroundings...

chronicpride

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:14 am Post subject:

denverdeath wrote:

chronicpride wrote:

Yu_Bum_suk wrote:

I think I'm glad I won't be spending a year right here in the city centre, lol.

FYI- DongDaegu station=East Daegu station.

I lived in Dae-goo. Actually, near the LPG station in Dong-dae-goo. Dong-dae-goo-yuhk is 5, maximum 10, minutes from downtown; at least when I lived there it was. Close enough to downtown, I think.

I lived in downtown and would have to factor, at least 15-20 minutes by taxi to get to DongDaegu, every other weekend, when I'd head to the station. If you have a taxi driver hitting all the lights and hauling ass, he can do it in 10-12. Trust me, I timed this commute a lot while biting my nails in the back of cabs, whenever I was running late for the train.

If you take a look at a map of Daegu, DongDaegu is not anywhere close to Jungangno or Banwoldang. At least not close enough to be passed off as downtown or an outskirt of it.

Barking Mad Lord Snapcase

Joined: 04 Nov 2003

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:32 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Barking Mad wrote:

Quote:

Very good point. However, "moderate" is the key word here. If this Korean led by example, if he practiced what he preached (and practiced a lot more than preached), if he showed respect to his elders (within reason), then at least he would be showing some integrity. If, however, he abused his position of authority and trust, then he would be overstepping the mark; just as a Westerner in Korea would be overstepping the mark by preaching long and loud about the evils of pornography and "macho" police thrillers.

denverdeath

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject:

chronicpride wrote:

denverdeath wrote:

chronicpride wrote:

Yu_Bum_suk wrote:

I think I'm glad I won't be spending a year right here in the city centre, lol.

FYI- DongDaegu station=East Daegu station.

I lived in Dae-goo. Actually, near the LPG station in Dong-dae-goo. Dong-dae-goo-yuhk is 5, maximum 10, minutes from downtown; at least when I lived there it was. Close enough to downtown, I think.

What about by subway?

chronicpride

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:47 pm Post subject:

denverdeath wrote:

chronicpride wrote:

denverdeath wrote:

chronicpride wrote:

Yu_Bum_suk wrote:

I think I'm glad I won't be spending a year right here in the city centre, lol.

FYI- DongDaegu station=East Daegu station.

I lived in Dae-goo. Actually, near the LPG station in Dong-dae-goo. Dong-dae-goo-yuhk is 5, maximum 10, minutes from downtown; at least when I lived there it was. Close enough to downtown, I think.

What about by subway?

Subway is about 15 minutes or so, maybe longer depending on how long you have to wait for the train. Dongdaegu Subway Stn is still a little ways from the train station, so, in a pinch, I would usually prefer going by taxi, as they take you right up to the entrance.

Homer
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:42 am Post subject:

Yes of course...this was very a very well tought out OP.

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