|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Freezer Burn
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Location: Busan
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:27 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Witchcraft is the name we give to the "witchdoctors" Voodoo,
African black magic is not the usual spell casting wand waving characters that we are use to in pop culture, and its not witchcraft.
Sportsguy do yourself a favour and actually read the books you may find yourself rooting along with Harry, Ron and Hermoine as they face the evils of Voldermont and the Death Eaters, or you may burn the book and start throwing holy water on purchasers as the walk out from What the Book with new copies of the evil Harry Potter under their arms either way is fine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:23 am Post subject: ... |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Wicca, wizardry, witchcraft, or whatever you wanna call it, involves demons. Not every part of it, but in the most used parts. Do some research on witches in Africa and see how innocent they are... |
Why don't you stop lumping terms together and making generalizations.
How about a link to what you're saying?
Perhaps, as you know little to nil about the subject you're criticizing you could have started the thread with the question, "Is HP satanic?"
Instead of declaring that it is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Daniel, I think I can understand where you're coming from a little bit better.
Seoulunitarian wrote:
| Quote: |
... being a Christian to me has nothing to do with accepting anything other than the life of Christ, and attempting to follow his example. ...In that sense, I think Gandhi would qualify. His life was a lot closer to Christ's than most Christians I know, including myself. And had Jesus been able to talk to Gandhi face to face, I expect they would have considered each other spiritual brothers.
|
I believe it was you who posted a while back about the possibility that Jesus might be a mythical figure rather than a real person ... so if you don't accept mainstream Christian beliefs about Jesus, then how do you know which stories to believe about him? I think you're the one who said before that it's hard to sort out the fact from the fiction. (That was a great point, BTW.) Whose example are you following, then, if all you have to go on is a collection of wildly differing stories that may be part fact, part myth, part plagiarism and part forgery? I don't know ... there are a lot of people whose examples I might like to follow, but Christianity to me seems to be about more than living a good life. In fact, I think it's a bit offensive when people use the word "Christian" to refer to a very good or moral person when that person may follow some other religion, or no religion at all. (I mean, why identify Christianity with everything good and moral in the world, instead of other religions or belief systems like atheism?)
| Quote: |
| Granted, this is not the mainline definition of a Christian, but I honestly believe it's closer to what Christ wanted than what most Christians believe today. |
How do we know what he would have wanted? It's very hard for any of us to imagine the thinking or life experience of a person who lived so long ago. Even if he was a real historical person, can we really look to his teachings for all the answers we need to live good lives here and now?
| Quote: |
| To me, being Christian is not about right belief, but right living. |
But don't we need one to achieve the other, to some extent? I don't think we need to have all the answers about the afterlife and the spirit world to live good lives, but if we have our facts wrong about the work we're doing in this world, it usually comes back to bite us. And if we can't clearly explain what we believe and how our beliefs differ from those of the person we're talking to, I think we're headed for some major communication problems.
| Quote: |
| Part of the problem with Western Christians, in my opinion, is that there is this modern era, scientific black/white litmus test for everything. To the modern (as opposed to the postmodern), Western, Christian mind, something cannot be true unless it's totally true in the scientific sense. But how in the world does a person scientifically prove something that is inherently spiritual. It cannot be done, nor is it meant to be done. Being a Christian is not a black/white issue. It is a subjective, spiritual journey, and trying to break it down into provable points is futile. |
I guess I still have a bit of a problem with this ... but I'll have to think about it for a while and come back to it again some time.
Last edited by red dog on Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sportsguy wrote:
| Quote: |
| Besides the fact that H.P. is extremely disrespectful to his guardians, which is a bad example in itself, he casts a spell on them. |
You have got to be kidding, right? Now I have to join the others in asking if you've actually read any of the books. Come on.
Others have made good points about the difference between prayer/spells, why single out Harry, etc. But based on the first book and the second and third films, I just can't understand what all the hype is about -- either negative or positive. I guess he must appeal to kids, but he doesn't do much for me personally. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
huck
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sportsguy, does it bother you that you let other people tell you what to think? You've obviously never read Harry Potter, yet you're complaining about things in the book which I don't think are true.
Same thing with the bible and your Chistianity - someone once told you, "You must believe this book to be true. You must believe in Jesus Christ, our Savior," and so you do. It'd be more understandable, more forgiveable, if you had decided - after reading 10,000 books - that the Bible was the one that seemed the most realistic to you, but everyone knows thats not how it works. Your family or your friends or someone forces you to start reciting "Our father, who are in Heaven, hallowed be thy name," and pretty soon, you're brainwashed enough to believe it. If they had set you down in front of the Korean  when you were three, you'd be bowing down to Mecca right about now giving thanks to Allah.
Start thinking for yourself (after doing what I say, of course). Don't come on here saying Harry Potter is bad just because you read it on some other website. If you haven't noticed, no one agrees with you. We're all past the age of 2 where we can't tell the difference between fiction and non-fiction. But maybe you see yourself as one of those missionaries, who go to primitive places, and convince them that the religion that has been working for these people for thousands of years is actually BS, and you destroy their lives and values by introducing Christianity, even though the potential converts hateyou at first....and you see yourself acting as Christ would, taking the insults, turning the other cheek, hoping that someone will recognize your love and righteousness and that we will embrace your heathen religion....
It's probably not going to happen because you're coming across as extremely ignorant more than anything else.
Last edited by huck on Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
krats1976
Joined: 14 May 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| huck wrote: |
If they had set you down in front of the Torah when you were three, you'd be bowing down to Mecca right about now giving thanks to Allah.
...
It's probably not going to happen because you're coming across as extremely ignorant more than anything else. |
Speak for yourself...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sportsguy35
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Sportsguy, does it bother you that you let other people tell you what to think? You've obviously never read Harry Potter, yet you're complaining about things in the book which I don't think are true.
Same thing with the bible and your Chistianity - someone once told you, "You must believe this book to be true. You must believe in Jesus Christ, our Savior," and so you do. It'd be more understandable, more forgiveable, if you had decided - after reading 10,000 books - that the Bible was the one that seemed the most realistic to you, but everyone knows thats not how it works. Your family or your friends or someone forces you to start reciting "Our father, who are in Heaven, hallowed be thy name," and pretty soon, you're brainwashed enough to believe it. If they had set you down in front of the Torah when you were three, you'd be bowing down to Mecca right about now giving thanks to Allah.
Start thinking for yourself (after doing what I say, of course). Don't come on here saying Harry Potter is bad just because you read it on some other website. If you haven't noticed, no one agrees with you. We're all past the age of 2 where we can't tell the difference between fiction and non-fiction. But maybe you see yourself as one of those missionaries, who go to primitive places, and convince them that the religion that has been working for these people for thousands of years is actually BS, and you destroy their lives and values by introducing Christianity, even though the potential converts hateyou at first....and you see yourself acting as Christ would, taking the insults, turning the other cheek, hoping that someone will recognize your love and righteousness and that we will embrace your heathen religion....
It's probably not going to happen because you're coming across as extremely ignorant more than anything else. |
First of all, like I said earlier, I have watched the movie. I have had one conversation with a friend about this topic. I havent been in the states for a while. The article the other guy posted on here about the anti-Harry website was the first I have seen. I also became a Christian when I was 19 years old after being an alcoholic and stuck in a horrible life. I CHOSE FOR MYSELF because I wanted something better than I had. And I don't see myself doing anything except being me. Do you want me to come back at you and curse you??? Say lots of really mean things to you??? What good is that gonna do? You have summed up my whole life by my opinion on Harry Potter. How ignorant is that??? OMG, I actually have faith in something that is not scientific fact. OMG, that faith has actually brought me more joy than anything. I just wanted to discuss H.P. Obviously nobody else here agrees with me, thats ok. I agree there are demons in lots of religions, including Christianity. Its like people on this board have the mindset that somebody cant be a Christian. 'Cause if they are and they try to express their views, they are ignorant because they believe a book written 2,000 years ago. Having said that, I hope that you would have a wonderful day . |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sportsguy, I didn't see the first movie, only the second and third. But the first book in the series (the only one I've read) makes it very clear that Harry's guardians are bad people. They keep Harry in a closet, while his cousin gets a nice room and toys like any other kid, and basically treat him as a prisoner/slave. Anyone who has read the book and thinks Harry is a bad example for suposedly "disrespecting his guardians" is not someone whose religion I want anything to do with. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: re: |
|
|
| red dog wrote: |
Thanks Daniel, I think I can understand where you're coming from a little bit better.
Seoulunitarian wrote:
| Quote: |
... being a Christian to me has nothing to do with accepting anything other than the life of Christ, and attempting to follow his example. ...In that sense, I think Gandhi would qualify. His life was a lot closer to Christ's than most Christians I know, including myself. And had Jesus been able to talk to Gandhi face to face, I expect they would have considered each other spiritual brothers.
|
I believe it was you who posted a while back about the possibility that Jesus might be a mythical figure rather than a real person ... so if you don't accept mainstream Christian beliefs about Jesus, then how do you know which stories to believe about him? I think you're the one who said before that it's hard to sort out the fact from the fiction. (That was a great point, BTW.) Whose example are you following, then, if all you have to go on is a collection of wildly differing stories that may be part fact, part myth, part plagiarism and part forgery? I don't know ... there are a lot of people whose examples I might like to follow, but Christianity to me seems to be about more than living a good life. In fact, I think it's a bit offensive when people use the word "Christian" to refer to a very good or moral person when that person may follow some other religion, or no religion at all. (I mean, why identify Christianity with everything good and moral in the world, instead of other religions or belief systems like atheism?)
| Quote: |
| Granted, this is not the mainline definition of a Christian, but I honestly believe it's closer to what Christ wanted than what most Christians believe today. |
How do we know what he would have wanted? It's very hard for any of us to imagine the thinking or life experience of a person who lived so long ago. Even if he was a real historical person, can we really look to his teachings for all the answers we need to live good lives here and now?
| Quote: |
| To me, being Christian is not about right belief, but right living. |
But don't we need one to achieve the other, to some extent? I don't think we need to have all the answers about the afterlife and the spirit world to live good lives, but if we have our facts wrong about the work we're doing in this world, it usually comes back to bite us. And if we can't clearly explain what we believe and how our beliefs differ from those of the person we're talking to, I think we're headed for some major communication problems.
| Quote: |
| Part of the problem with Western Christians, in my opinion, is that there is this modern era, scientific black/white litmus test for everything. To the modern (as opposed to the postmodern), Western, Christian mind, something cannot be true unless it's totally true in the scientific sense. But how in the world does a person scientifically prove something that is inherently spiritual. It cannot be done, nor is it meant to be done. Being a Christian is not a black/white issue. It is a subjective, spiritual journey, and trying to break it down into provable points is futile. |
I guess I still have a bit of a problem with this ... but I'll have to think about it for a while and come back to it again some time. |
It's so darn good to finally have a good conversation around here  Again, I should start with a preface: my hermeneutic of truth probably doesn't match yours, or many others around here. I tend to follow the postmodern path of experience over reason, which may actually be more like sportsguy's than any other poster on this thread. However, his experience and mine leads us to different conclusions about what truth is.
When it comes to push and shove, I can't really say I care whether or not Jesus actually existed. What we have, and the only thing we will ever have, is the canonical Christ, the Christ of faith. There's no way we can ever know the historical Jesus if he ever existed in the first place. But as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really matter. The Christ of faith is the "person" who changes the heart of a believer. This is hard for some to swallow exactly because of the influence scientific modernism has had on western culture.
I agree with you that Christianity should be about living a good life. When I said it's not about right belief, I was referring more to doctrine than morality. I doubt God really cares much what we believe about creation, resurrection, heaven, hell, etc. What He/She does care about is how we treat others. It is offensive, I agree, to equate good with Christian. It's a realistic falsity and quite culturally biased.
I think one of the good things about never knowing the historical Jesus and exactly what he wanted is that we have to figure some things out for ourselves. In my opinion, it's one of the reasons that God does not reveal Him/Herself more fully - we shouldn't be robots. That's what the wisdom literature of the OT is all about (Job, Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, Song of Solomon). When we read those OT books, we see people cursing God, questioning God, asking tough questions, and figuring out life for themselves. It's what God wants - mature disciples, not automatons.
I look forward to more dialogue.
Peace,
Daniel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I just wanted to discuss H.P. Obviously nobody else here agrees with me, thats ok. |
Sorry Sportsguy but you didnt want to discuss HP. You wanted people to agree with your stance and beliefs. Perhaps you're a little shocked, angry and offended by some of the comments people have made.
Of course nobody here agrees with you as most people here have read the books and seen the movies as well. (with an open mind)
Your mind is not open, it is closed and poisoned by your beliefs. You have given up thinking for yourself and taking responsabililty for forming your own opinions and ideas. Many 'christians' follow this path. They give up themselves and believe what other people tell them to beleive, whether it be preachers, pastors or other like minded people. They get together and can all agree on how HP is evil. Why? Because they are looking for confirmation that their belief is right. What better way to confirm your belief than by attacking an innocent book or movie?
I think that the posts of a majority of people here have opened your eyes to the truth that your 'faith' blinded you to.
Walking the path less traveled does not mean following blindly. It means following your heart and thinking things through on your own. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pollyplummer
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Location: McMinnvillve, Oregon
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
|
|
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
I think one of the good things about never knowing the historical Jesus and exactly what he wanted is that we have to figure some things out for ourselves. In my opinion, it's one of the reasons that God does not reveal Him/Herself more fully - we shouldn't be robots. That's what the wisdom literature of the OT is all about (Job, Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, Song of Solomon). When we read those OT books, we see people cursing God, questioning God, asking tough questions, and figuring out life for themselves. It's what God wants - mature disciples, not automatons.
I look forward to more dialogue.
|
Interesting discussion! I believe that God tells you what He wants, just like a dad does when you're growing up in his house. He talks to me. People don't like to hear about that kind of experiential stuff, though. They prefer to talk about experiences that can be measured and verified. God does cool stuff like that, too... for example, miracles. I've seen lots of them and even experienced some myself.
I've seen the movies and also read the first Harry Potter book, but I didnt find myself becoming attached to the characters. I know everyone says it's great children's literature, but I didnt really enjoy it. I don't trust the characters and I dont love them. But with Lord of the Rings, somehow I do love and trust Gandalf, who is a wizard. My comment is not so much on sorcery but more about how endearing the characters are or are not. I'm just not a big fan of Harry Potter. I dont care what happens to him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sportsguy35
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Sorry Sportsguy but you didnt want to discuss HP. You wanted people to agree with your stance and beliefs. Perhaps you're a little shocked, angry and offended by some of the comments people have made.
Of course nobody here agrees with you as most people here have read the books and seen the movies as well. (with an open mind)
Your mind is not open, it is closed and poisoned by your beliefs. You have given up thinking for yourself and taking responsabililty for forming your own opinions and ideas. Many 'christians' follow this path. They give up themselves and believe what other people tell them to beleive, whether it be preachers, pastors or other like minded people. They get together and can all agree on how HP is evil. Why? Because they are looking for confirmation that their belief is right. What better way to confirm your belief than by attacking an innocent book or movie?
I think that the posts of a majority of people here have opened your eyes to the truth that your 'faith' blinded you to.
Walking the path less traveled does not mean following blindly. It means following your heart and thinking things through on your own.
|
Well, Mr. Grotto. I am not sure if you are the one with the closed mind, or its just that you can't read, which one it is, I don't know. I didnt know there were christians in America against this kid. I just recently saw the movie and had a discussion with my friend. Discussion, you know what that is right? Its where people tell what they think about a certain topic. In this case, you don't tell what you think, you tell me what i should think and why I am wrong for thinking the way I do. My previous post about not following blindly should be read again, or read for the first time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sportsguy35
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Seoul Unitarian,
I have a respect for your beliefs. They remind me of a book I read a couple years ago called, "A new kind of Christian." It dialogues conversations between a burned out pastor wanting to quit and an older man who shares some of the same beliefs as you. Its really quite very interesting. Most christians can't stomach it, but I just take it with a grain of salt. I don't agree with everything, but some of the stuff is good. A big thing is there is prayer. Also one of the most important examples Jesus gave us, in my opinion. What are your thoughts on prayer? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject: re: |
|
|
| sportsguy35 wrote: |
Seoul Unitarian,
I have a respect for your beliefs. They remind me of a book I read a couple years ago called, "A new kind of Christian." It dialogues conversations between a burned out pastor wanting to quit and an older man who shares some of the same beliefs as you. Its really quite very interesting. Most christians can't stomach it, but I just take it with a grain of salt. I don't agree with everything, but some of the stuff is good. A big thing is there is prayer. Also one of the most important examples Jesus gave us, in my opinion. What are your thoughts on prayer? |
Concerning prayer, I think it probably changes us more than it changes God. I do believe prayer is one way of having dialogue with God.
Peace,
Daniel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sportsguy35
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Concerning prayer, I think it probably changes us more than it changes God. I do believe prayer is one way of having dialogue with God.
|
How would something change God? I might be overlooking something, but it seems that God is already perfect. What other ways do you see of having dialogue with God? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
