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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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 Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| lamest argument on this board in quite some time |
I agree. My opponent insists that I am an idiot, but has yet to present her argument. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:27 am Post subject: ... |
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| What exactly do you think "Nazi" means? Let me guess... you read on some left-wing website that Hitler was a "right-wing" socialist? Explain to me how the ideologies (slogans) of Hitler and Mao differ. |
Nazi Germany sought to erase the Jewish footprint on their society.
In other words, they were trrying to turn things back to older times.
That is, by definition, conservative.
Mao's cultural revolution was described as the Great Leap Forward. That alone can be defined as liberal. It was an attempt to erase history. A whole generation of teachers was cast out. That was a hyper-liberal act.
Nevertheless, the distinction is quite clear. Nazis were conservatives (turning back) and Mao was liberal (turning forward).
Either way, it pays to say that radicals on either edge are not all that different.
Communism is a good idea in theory. In practice, it is destroyed by greed. Capitalism assumes greed, but is not a solution.
In practice, a hybrid is best.
Of course, there may be another alternative we are as yet unaware of.
History is never finished. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Either way, it pays to say that radicals on either edge are not all that different.
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There is a proverb, from Iran I think, that says, "The sheep doesn't care if the butcher is handsome or ugly." (I hear this is also quite a popular proverb in another context among Southern Hemisphere sheep.) |
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sonofthedarkstranger
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyone who thinks Naziism is a form of communism really shouldn't be posting on the Current Events board. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
lamest argument on this board in quite some time (besides Joo and Bob, which merely got tiresome after the ___ time).
Come on you two, stop exchanging petty, juvenille insults and debate or don't say anything at all. Both of you are acting like freshmen in college- seriously.
Hell, not even that. At least they'd be spewing out whatever they've learned in a few months of class. |
In my defense- I tried, but anyone who thinks that Nazi Germany was communist, well, it brought out my inner smart ass. |
Since no one, except Nowhere Man (congrats to him) is willing to elaborate because either they are a) lazy b) not knowledgable enough. I think it is rather pathetic that you all are insulting Joe and thinking he is an idiot because he equates the NAZIs with communism.
Now come on people, honestly.. While yes, on the surface, the two are far apart, lets be honest: the ties between corporations and the gov['t in NAZI germany were very, very tight. Volkswagon was Hitler's idea was it not?
Yes, if you want to take both of them literally, they are quite different, but in practice they were very, very similar. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| soviet_man wrote: |
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| However, I don't think it will be possible to do either as long as people are ignorant of what communism really is (i.e. equating places like North Korea with communism). |
There is no simple or universal rule to define what 'communism' is - as many people use the term to describe quite diffuse political phenomena.
My personal belief is that the DPRK is indeed a particular strand of communism. The commonality in ideological basis for communism, is the total opposition to (and ultimate elimination of) capitalist structure.
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| Kang's simplistic tale of good and evil, freedom and communism, much better suits his preconceptions than any complex historical insight into the Korean division |
Of course. In Korea, a country that purports to have a 3000 year history, putting the politics of the last 50 years into historical context is needed.
Think of all the Korean dynasty attrocities, imperialistic kingdoms in past centuries and other historical crimes that have been committed during that time.
That is why petty Korean nationalism, blind ROK flag waving, "Dynamic Korea", anti-DPRK media reports and all the rest of the ROK government propaganda is such an absurd context to defend or promote. |
As opposed to waving the North Korean flag.  |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
Now come on people, honestly.. While yes, on the surface, the two are far apart, lets be honest: the ties between corporations and the gov['t in NAZI germany were very, very tight. Volkswagon was Hitler's idea was it not?
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Ironically the role of WW2 for German corporations was to bring their governance closer to the American model (powerful board of directors, less powerful shareholders).
Yes, VW was Hitler's idea (that was a car, not a company, though), but many other companies had foreign investment, particularly before the war - ITT in Focke-Wolfe, DuPont / Standard Oil in I.G. Farben, GM with its subsiduary Opel, Coca-Cola inventing Fanta, etc etc.
All these things would be an anathema to a Communist state.
The ties between government and corporations only became really tight during WW2 - as they did in the UK, and in the US (where 100 large corporations got 2/3 of the govt contracts).
Comparing this kind of economic activity to what went on in Mao's Great Leap Forward is bonkers. |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
Nazi Germany sought to erase the Jewish footprint on their society.
In other words, they were trrying to turn things back to older times.
That is, by definition, conservative.
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This is a cute rationalization, totally bogus, but don't feel bad, you're not the first liberal I've heard use it. Just so you know, "Nazi" means "National Socialist German Workers Party". It was a socialist movement that grew out of the Great Depression.
The principle was, Hitler said to the poor, desperate Germans: You guys are the real stuff. Look at those Jews over there in their fancy houses. They're rich, while you People are starving. Obviously they're thieves. Let's smash up their windows, and if that doesnt' do the trick, let's kill them and re-distribute their possessions to make our country stronger and better.
Exchange "Jews" for "aristocrats/land owners/merchants/foreigners" and you've basically described the revolutionary ideology of Mao, Castro, Kim Il Sung, Ho Chi Minh, and the Bolsheviks. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, the jewish thing was a stretch by Nowhere Man, I agree with Joe on to some extent. Jews had been Germany for ages; I'd hardly say trying to get rid of them was trying to roll back time. Instead, it was quite revolutionary (in a hellish, god awful way).
As for hypnotist, thanks for that post, was good. That's what I was hoping for.  A good explanation about the differences between the two. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| joe_doufu wrote: |
This is a cute rationalization, totally bogus, but don't feel bad, you're not the first liberal I've heard use it. Just so you know, "Nazi" means "National Socialist German Workers Party". It was a socialist movement that grew out of the Great Depression. |
Yes, and the official name of North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. I take it you've read 1984 and understand Newspeak...
| Quote: |
| The principle was, Hitler said to the poor, desperate Germans: You guys are the real stuff. Look at those Jews over there in their fancy houses. They're rich, while you People are starving. Obviously they're thieves. Let's smash up their windows, and if that doesnt' do the trick, let's kill them and re-distribute their possessions to make our country stronger and better. |
Right. So where's the social equality that is inherant in, er, socialism?
This is strongly nationalist (and anti-semetic) but I don't see much socialism there.
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| Exchange "Jews" for "aristocrats/land owners/merchants/foreigners" and you've basically described the revolutionary ideology of Mao, Castro, Kim Il Sung, Ho Chi Minh, and the Bolsheviks. |
Right again. So we've established that targetting a minority group is a good way for dictatorships to take root or strengthen themselves. So what? That doesn't in any way prove that Nazi Germany was Communist.
I've already given one example above of how the German economy was capitalist at its heart.
In 1977, John Kenneth Galbraith, the famous Harvard economist, wrote in his book, The Age of Uncertainty , that Hitler "was the true protagonist of the Keynesian ideas."
What did Keynes see as his role in economics? To save Capitalism from Communism!
But truthfully the economic side is less important. Nazis weren't Socialists. Who did they kill in the Nacht der langen Messer? Socialists. If anything demonstrates why Nazis were Nationalists and not Socialists (other than for when it suited their propaganda machine), that would be it. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Not really. one could argue that they killed them simply because they had different ideas of socialism. We are talking about the NAZIs here, not big fans of diverse thought on any subject.  Remember, Trotsky was killed for having a different idea of communism from Stalin (well in addition to being a potential threat to Stalin's power).
While I agree, and don't think the NAZIs viewed themselves as socialists by any means, I also don't think your point is the best illustration of them not being socialists. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
Not really. one could argue that they killed them simply because they had different ideas of socialism. We are talking about the NAZIs here, not big fans of diverse thought on any subject. Remember, Trotsky was killed for having a different idea of communism from Stalin (well in addition to being a potential threat to Stalin's power).
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One could, but only if one had limited knowledge of the night (and week) in question 
Roehm was pushing for a second, socialist revolution. That upset the industrialists who were backing Hitler (who certainly weren't socialists, and to whom Hitler had promised in The Road to Resurgence that the Nazis were socialist in name only).
True, he was also worried that the SA were becoming too powerful. But the political difference had a great deal to do with it. (He was also very put out by the homosexual behaviour in Roehm's organisation - another difference from 'real' socialists.. back to that equality thing.) |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| desultude wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
lamest argument on this board in quite some time (besides Joo and Bob, which merely got tiresome after the ___ time).
Come on you two, stop exchanging petty, juvenille insults and debate or don't say anything at all. Both of you are acting like freshmen in college- seriously.
Hell, not even that. At least they'd be spewing out whatever they've learned in a few months of class. |
In my defense- I tried, but anyone who thinks that Nazi Germany was communist, well, it brought out my inner smart ass. |
Since no one, except Nowhere Man (congrats to him) is willing to elaborate because either they are a) lazy b) not knowledgable enough. I think it is rather pathetic that you all are insulting Joe and thinking he is an idiot because he equates the NAZIs with communism.
Now come on people, honestly.. While yes, on the surface, the two are far apart, lets be honest: the ties between corporations and the gov['t in NAZI germany were very, very tight. Volkswagon was Hitler's idea was it not?
Yes, if you want to take both of them literally, they are quite different, but in practice they were very, very similar. |
I did give a link to wikipedia's site on ideologies. And corporatism and communism are not the same thing. It is necessary to have your terms clear. I did not elaborate because Joe made it clear he was not interested in academic explanations. He said this, and I take him at his word.
For the record, I used to teach a course in Ideologies at the University of Washington. I damn well know the differences. But I am not spinning my wheels with anyone who dismisses anything learned from a book, which Joe did. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What exactly do you think "Nazi" means? Let me guess... you read on some left-wing website that Hitler was a "right-wing" socialist? Explain to me how the ideologies (slogans) of Hitler and Mao differ. |
Nazi Germany sought to erase the Jewish footprint on their society.
In other words, they were trrying to turn things back to older times.
That is, by definition, conservative.
Mao's cultural revolution was described as the Great Leap Forward. That alone can be defined as liberal. It was an attempt to erase history. A whole generation of teachers was cast out. That was a hyper-liberal act.
Nevertheless, the distinction is quite clear. Nazis were conservatives (turning back) and Mao was liberal (turning forward).
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You are absolutely correct about conservatism. But Mao was no liberal. Liberalism, correctly understood, is related to libertarianism in a quest for human individualism and freedom. Chinese communists rightly (as least rightly given their ideology and agenda) attacked anything that smacked of "liberalism" as being excessively individualistic. John Stuart Mill is a good model for liberalism.
The real irony is that the terms "liberal" and "Conservative" have flipped over time. The real liberals were of the Adam Smith mode, and conservatives had an interest in providing for something like the common good and collective responsibility.
This is exactly why the terms of a discussion, if it it to be a meaningful one, have to be clarified and agreed upon.
Again, for a primer on ideologies, you could start at wikipedia, or find a good book on political ideologies. The one I used to assign is now out of print, but there are many out there. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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ha ha ha, that's Joe's point: while they might be different ideologies on paper, in practice they are the same. I thought both of us made that clear, but I guess not. Your definition is totally irrelevant for the argument he was making.
And honestly, what is the point in this argument? Both facist and communist gov'ts have been a blight in the political history of mankind; hitler and stalin's USSR were the worst of both. Conversely, Franco and say, communist Hungary, were better of their two respective groups. |
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