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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Well, given the evidence so far presented, he's completely correct insofar as the inquiry hasn't finished, and is somewhat opaque (which it probably has to be at this stage), but that conclusions are already being reported as fact (based on (compelling) circumstantial evidence). Of course I don't know any right-minded person who really believes they are innocent either.
Other Muslims have called for his resignation:
Khalid Mahmood, the MP for Birmingham Perry Barr, demanded that Mohammad Naseem - the chairman of the city's central mosque - step down after he said last night that the four July 7 suicide bombers, who killed 52 tube and bus commuters, "could have been innocent passengers".
Mr Mahmood said Dr Naseem - who has also suggested al-Qaida may not exist - had done damage to the reputation of the Muslim community. "It's wholly unacceptable and, in light of what he has said, he certainly should resign," he said.
By the way, Naseem is not just a moderate - he was also a candidate for the Respect-Unity party. He has his own political axes to grind. Wonder why the Telegraph neglected to mention that... |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| By the way, Naseem is not just a moderate - he was also a candidate for the Respect-Unity party. He has his own political axes to grind. Wonder why the Telegraph neglected to mention that... |
I wonder too. The fact that he is a member of that bizarre far-left/Islamist organisation would further undermine his 'moderate' status. But then again that's true of almost all Islamic 'moderates'. Scratch underneath the surface, and you're almost certain to find an intolerant fundamentalist. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| By the way, Naseem is not just a moderate - he was also a candidate for the Respect-Unity party. He has his own political axes to grind. Wonder why the Telegraph neglected to mention that... |
I wonder too. The fact that he is a member of that bizarre far-left/Islamist organisation would further undermine his 'moderate' status. But then again that's true of almost all Islamic 'moderates'. Scratch underneath the surface, and you're almost certain to find an intolerant fundamentalist. |
I agreed with you until the "But".  |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Another excellent article on so-called 'moderate' muslim leaders.
Consider how many British Muslims, supposedly opposed to homicide bombings, praised Hamas founder Sheikh Yassim, who engineered the murder of over 500 Israelis in furtherance of his organization's long-term goal to destroy Israel. After the Israeli Defense Forces killed him, a memorial service was held in London, an event attended by �moderates� like Muslim Council Secretary General Sir Iqbal Sacranie, who called Yassim a �renowned Islamic scholar,� an estimation shared by Inayat Bunglawala. Think about the implications: respected, Westernized �moderate� Muslims praise a terrorist murderer as an �Islamic scholar,� and we are supposed to believe that �fanatics� have �hijacked� and �distorted� Islam?
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/thornton072605.html |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Hamas, given their electoral victories recently, are probably going to define international relations with Palestine over the next couple of years.
Hamas isn't /just/ a terrorist organisation, although it deserves to be treated as one by the west. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| So, what do you think of these so-called 'moderates' stating the 'terrorism has nothing to do with Islam', while praising members of terrorist organisations as 'renowed' scholars? Surely they should be condemning such people? |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| So, what do you think of these so-called 'moderates' stating the 'terrorism has nothing to do with Islam', while praising members of terrorist organisations as 'renowed' scholars? Surely they should be condemning such people? |
I don't honestly think the two positions are mutually exclusive. Yassin was undoubtedly a scholar who contributed much thinking to the Palestinian cause. Sadly most of it was counter-productive, violent and stupid. Nevertheless it's hard to directly blame him for any terrorism - he was a figurehead, not a commander. It's easy to do so indirectly of course - and probably right to.
That said, whilst I don't find it surprising or disturbing they don't condemn /him/ per se, they should certainly be condemning the organisation's terrorism. No doubt about that, the terrorist acts Hamas has carried out are outrageous, wrong and inhuman. That's not all Hamas does, but as I said - as long as it does engage in terrorist activity, it (as an organisation) doesn't deserve to escape treatment as a terrorist group. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| I don't honestly think the two positions are mutually exclusive. |
But don't you think it's a bit rich for such 'moderates' to complain about Islamophobia, while paying their respects at a memorial service to a man who dedicated his life to an organisation that deliberately targeted civilians, including women and children. And to call Yassin a 'renowed scholar' is not exactly a ringing condemnation.
As I've said, under the surface of every 'moderate' is a fundamentalist, and if you observe them for long enough you will see the mask slip. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| every moderate is a fundamentalist underneeth? Dude, give me a break. That is the biggest generalization you've made, and that says something. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't honestly think the two positions are mutually exclusive. |
But don't you think it's a bit rich for such 'moderates' to complain about Islamophobia, while paying their respects at a memorial service to a man who dedicated his life to an organisation that deliberately targeted civilians, including women and children. And to call Yassin a 'renowed scholar' is not exactly a ringing condemnation.
As I've said, under the surface of every 'moderate' is a fundamentalist, and if you observe them for long enough you will see the mask slip. |
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| In 1979, while Karzai was a student in India, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Karzai's family fled to Quetta, Pakistan; where he gave financial support and worked as a key planner and strategist, helping to route supplies to the anti-Soviet Islamic guerrillas. When the Soviet troops withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989, Karzai returned to his homeland. Karzai served for a time in the cabinet under Afghan president Burhanuddin Rabbani. In 1996, the Taliban took control of his country. Karzai briefly aligned himself with the Taliban, but as a moderate Muslim and advocate of women's rights, he soon joined his father and younger brother in opposition to the Taliban. Karzai became leader of the Popolzai, a clan of about 500,000 members in 1999 when his father was assassinated by people Karzai believed to be Taliban agents. The following year, Karzai testified before the Foreign Relations Committee of the United States Senate on the urgent need to replace the Taliban. In 2001, following the September 11 terrorist attack, Karzai worked with the United States to overthrow the Taliban in Afghanistan and muster support for a new government. Karzai helped negotiate the Taliban's surrender of Kandahar, its last remaining stronghold, in December, 2001. On December 22, Karzai was sworn in as interim prime minister of Afghanistan. In June 2002, a special session of more than 1,500 Afghan representatives, voted overwhelmingly to appoint Karzai transitional head of state until the country would hold its first-ever general elections, in 2004. |
You can start with proof as to how Karzai is a fundamentalist. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:13 am Post subject: |
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OK, I'll modify that. Not every moderate is a fundamentalist. That's obviously wrong. However, a worrying number are. Certainly, in the UK, the Muslim Council of Britain and others, are anything but moderate. The same goes for CAIR in the USA.
Simply because the media proclaims someone to be a moderate, does not mean that they are. Underneath the surface many (not all) are apologists for Jihad and Islamist agendas. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Okay!
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| a worrying number are |
In that we're in definite agreement. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Underneath the surface many (not all) are apologists for Jihad and Islamist agendas. |
Unfortunately murder, greed and bloodlust are the driving motives of humans, and are disguised by a cacaphony of deceptively politically correct appearances.
They want to kill, subjugate and steal from us. Religious ideology is simply an incredibly useful tool to accomplish it. |
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junkmail
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Underneath the surface many (not all) are apologists for Jihad and Islamist agendas. |
Unfortunately murder, greed and bloodlust are the driving motives of humans, and are disguised by a cacaphony of deceptively politically correct appearances.
They want to kill, subjugate and steal from us. Religious ideology is simply an incredibly useful tool to accomplish it. |
Yes, but isn't that we want from them / already get from them.
We want their oil. We want cheap labour so we can out source etc.. |
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