Korean Job Discussion Forums

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

I don't think I'm advocating mixing "pure science" with religion. The relation between pure and applied science is already a little muddled, and there is always fierce competition for grants at universities among physical and social science departments. Some major universities (at least a couple) have departments conducting scientific research in paranormal phenomena. Why can't a broader course be offered that scientifically investigates the difference between spirit and matter?

I think that religion serves important social and spiritual functions in society. Many people seem satisfied with basically sentimental, dogmatic, apparently "unscientific" belief systems propagated by the major organized religions in western countries. Others, including more intelligent, naturally skepical types, have more faith in the (often atheistic) gods of science to solve the basic problems and mysteries of life. I think that there are significant numbers of sincere seekers that realize the limations of material science vis-a-vis the Absolute Truth, but who nonetheless would prefer more scientific approach to religion as offered by the spiritually progressive culture of ancient India.

Why do most material scientists reject the Vedic version? For starters, there was pernicious false propaganda made by influencial British empire-makers, envious Christian and Jewish leaders - and so-called Indologists all of whose aim was to discredit the spiritual foundation of ancient India by denying the authenticity of the Vedas. www.salagram.net/WesternIndologists-page.htm
Moreover, if Vedic literatures such as the Ramayana were to be taken literally- instead of as myth or fable - then it would indicate that intelligent life existed in that time period - more than 864,000 years ago (in the Treta Yuga - //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugas ) We would also be obliged to accept the existence of beings endowed with remarkable mystic powers, beings with subtle bodies, transmigration of souls, and avatars of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (eawc.evansville.edu/essays/dasa3.htm )
Although the originally Vedic science of astrology cannot offer "replicability" of results due to the individual's exercise of free will among various options at any juncture of space-time it does resemble pure science, both in its study and application, in its observation, experimentation and categorization of cause and effects.
www.natalcharts.biz/vedic_astrology
Unlike the the ascending scientific process of accepting natural laws after thorough observation, experimentation, reasoning, etc., Vedic science accepts revealed knowlege spoken at the time of creation and compiled in writing about 5000 years ago as axiomatic truths. Despite organized attempts to discredit it, much of the Vedic world view is supported by careful findings of research. www.afn.org/~bvi/mission.htm/Bhak.Inst.
www.humandevolution.com/devorevu.html

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

OK...I'll admit I'm shamelessly trying to keep this topic alive. And, just what the hell is my goal?:... to draw at least a thousand "views." Rolling Eyes

Ya-ta Boy · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

Ah!...I should've started earlier with this forum tonight. Now, it's getting late and I'm too tired to string coherent thoughts together - so my proving the existence of the soul will have to wait till tomorrow...

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

I actually spent a couple hours last night producing an absolutely great thesis proving (well, more-or-less...) the existence of pure spirit within (and without) the material world, but when I tried to "preview" and "submit" it the dang internet slowed down to like absolute zero - so it got lost in cyberspace. I'll try again tonight (I have to get to work in a few minutes...)

One point relating to the original thread is that archeologists rely mainly on discovering bones to date ancient civilizations. In Vedic culture - spread all over the world in "pre-historical" times - the custom was to always cremate bodies, leaving no bones. At the highest levels of spiritual perfection (commonly achieved in a much earlier age of "goodness," Satya yuga, millions of years ago) were those who completely spiritualized their material bodies and - from a material point of view - just disappeared without a trace.

Ya-ta Boy · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

I don't imagine that would be a very fun date... Rolling Eyes

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

...In Vedic culture they don't keep the ashes together in urns, - they scatter them in the ocean or in sacred rivers, lakes or ponds . (And I can't prove the existence of the soul this weekend 'cause I'm busy in Seoul, and I left my notes back in my "Korean hicksville" apartment...) I just read an interesting interview - on my motel PC - with (late Beatle and spiritual seeker) George Harrison wherein he discusses the spirit-soul and Vedic culture: http://introduction.krishna.org/Articles/2000/08/00066.html

Ya-ta Boy · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

Rest assured, I can talk about religion and (to a lesser extent) philosophy extemporaneously for hours at a time (...it was really easy preaching to stoned hippies in Key West in the mid-70s) But I realize that I need to make careful arguments solidly based on logic and reason to convince you and other skeptical academic types on this forum. Science is definitely not my forte, but I'll take a stab at presenting a concise thesis with some scientific jargon - borrowing heavily from the work of others. Not wanting to plagiarize (like the "old" J.B. Rolling Eyes

) I mainly need my notes to properly reference my quotes with website links, etc.

Ya-ta Boy · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

Well,...based on that miniscule concern, I edited my post (thereby losing any humor value it had) You might want to edit out the tell-tale quote in your post (before the old scandalous cat is out of the bag...)

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

Well, I said that I would offer scientific proof of the existence of the soul (on this more-or less hijacked thread) so I perused many articles on the subject before deciding to narrow my scope to presenting a single thesis that I've found to be at once scientifically persuasive and intellectually accessible to the intelligent layman. When I did a google search for "scientific proof for the existence of the soul" - voila! - I got an exact match as the Italian author of a book of that exact title was plugging it on a science web forum www.scienceforums.com/showthread.php?t=1516 I was impressed that the author, Marco Biagini, Ph.D. in Solid State Physics (hopefully not obtained in Bangkok...) convincingly handled challenges to his theses by various "scientists" (and aspiring scientists) on that forum. Biagini also has his own website at http://xoomer.virgilio.it/fedeescienza/englishnf.html As I'm mainly just quoting verbatim from his work, I can really take no credit for the following scientific proof of the soul:

"Materialism and atheism are incompatible with the scientific view of the universe. Science has in fact proved that all chemical, biological and cerebral processes consist only in some successions of elementary physical processes, determined in their turn only by the laws of quantum mechnics. Such a view of biological processes does not allow to account for the existence of consciousness, which existence implies then the presence in man of an unphysical element. Such element, being unphysical, can be identified as the soul." Biagini points to fundamental inconsistencies inherent in the "typical" arguments used by materialists, such as the concept of emergent, macroscopic or holistic property, complexity, information, etc... "Basically, science has proved that the so-called emergent properties are nothing but arbitrary classifications of successions of elementary physical processes; in other words, they are only abstract concepts used to describe in an approximated way the real processes. Since consciousness is a preliminary necessary condition for the existence of any concepts or classifications, the materialists attempts to explain consciousness as an emergent property are absolutely inconsistent from a logical point of view. No entities which existence presupposes the existence of consciousness can be considered the cause of the existence of consciousness."

Biagini further suggests that the "problem of the existence of the soul is connected to the one of God's existence." He offers the following independent argument "to prove directly the existence of God.":

"Science has proven that the state of the universe is determined by some specific mathematical principles and equations, the laws of physics. However, we know that mathematics can not exist by itself, but exists only as a thought in a conscious and intelligent mind. In fact, a mathematical equation is only an abstract concept, which existence presupposes the existence of a person who conceives such a concept.
Therefore, the existence of this mathematically structured universe does imply the existence of a personal God conceiving it. Some people object that mathematical equations are not the principles ruling the universe, but they are only a representation imagined by man ...This argument does not stand...It is not possible to account for the extraordinary agreement between the experimental data and the laws of physics without admitting that the state of the universe ...must necessarily be determined by some specific mathematical laws. The existence of these mathematical laws implies the existence of a personal, conscious and intelligent Creator. Atheism is incompatible with the view of the universe presented by modern science."

Ya-ta Boy · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994

Rteacher · Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA

If consciousness can be created by the right chemical combination then the onus is on scientists to demonstrate that they can revive a dead body by adding the right combination of chemicals...And whose nature is it? The beautiful patterns of snow flakes and ice crystals also suggest that the Creator has unlimited aesthetic sense - which we as minute parts-and parcels possess to varying limited degrees...