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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course, ESL teachers have not strapped bombs to themselves and massacred scores of innocents on the Seoul subway, so the analogy, like many of yours, is absurd. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Regardless, both are equally silly and impossible to enforce. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| This is good news. It doesn't really go far enought though. We should be closing down mosques and only allowing government licensed mosques to operate. It's time to really close in on the muslim community, and bring it crashing down to earth with a real thump. Further, British citizens who refuse to condemn terrorist acts against out nation should be subject to extremely lengthy terms in specially built prisons owing to the fact that they cant be deported. Bring the bastards down. |
This is good news. It doesn't really go far enough though. We should be closing down hakwons and only allowing government licensed hakwons to operate. It's time to really close in on the foreigner community, and bring it crashing down to earth with a real thump.......Bring the bastards down.
A bit over the top in either case wouldn't you say? But it serves to make the below point.
Does the entire Muslim community deserve to suffer for the acts of the extremists? Even those Muslims who do condem the attacks? And how would you find out? Would there be special teams prowling the street asking them "Are you a illegal teacher..." Whoops sorry I meant "Do you support the terror attacks?" |
Yowsah, and I never thought I would be reaching out my hand to TUM, but I can't recall ever seeing a post that approached this lucidity. |
The esl teacher muslim analogy is absurd. The day 2 million permanent immigrants of one ethnicity and religion can be compared to a mixed bag of varied temporary economic visitors that are needed by the country for a valuable service, is obviously...silly. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Of course, ESL teachers have not strapped bombs to themselves and massacred scores of innocents on the Seoul subway, so the analogy, like many of yours, is absurd. |
But they have been accused of having sex with their students and distributing illicit substances to them. And who here was happy when the Korean media tried to paint us all in those broad strokes.
No, the analogy does not quite effectively convey the magnitude of threat posed by Muslim extremists, but it comes close enough.
I'm all for policing people and kicking people out who actually do something, even if they verbally advocate (I take BB's distinction between justify and support to be important here) such bombings. But actually kicking people out who haven't done anything? These people are our natural allies! They don't like the bombers either!
I'm not asking for cultural sensitivity. I, like you bigverne, don't care about such things when faced with a massive campaign of IEDs hitting public areas, or when faced with the looming prospect of one big weapon hitting a Western city. I'm only asking that we don't shoot ourselves in the foot by alienating people who are very likely not just sympathetic but on our side. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Of course, ESL teachers have not strapped bombs to themselves and massacred scores of innocents on the Seoul subway, so the analogy, like many of yours, is absurd. |
You missed the point. The point is, because a few act badly (sleeping with their students, distributing drugs, and teaching illegally) should ALL suffer? I only used the analogy because (although admittedly far less serious) I was attempting to relate your prosposed solution to the Muslims in Britain to most posters' everyday life here. How would you like it if Korea started cracking down? The transcripts (while not particularly onerous) provoked 10+ pages, mostly of complaints. Imagine if they got a whole lot harder. Try and show some empathy.
Muslims who practise extremism do not deserve or have my sympathy. But I am not going to label everyone who practises that religion a terrorist or treat them as such. Apart from the undefensible immorality of such actions, that would certainly lay the breeding ground for far more terrorists. Repression only breeds resentment and anger (witness the teachers here who claim 'oh it's all right to teach privates because immigration law is racist' or some such nonsense) |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Regardless, both are equally silly and impossible to enforce. |
Which was exactly what I was attempting to convey. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| This is good news. It doesn't really go far enought though. We should be closing down mosques and only allowing government licensed mosques to operate. It's time to really close in on the muslim community, and bring it crashing down to earth with a real thump. Further, British citizens who refuse to condemn terrorist acts against out nation should be subject to extremely lengthy terms in specially built prisons owing to the fact that they cant be deported. Bring the bastards down. |
This is good news. It doesn't really go far enough though. We should be closing down hakwons and only allowing government licensed hakwons to operate. It's time to really close in on the foreigner community, and bring it crashing down to earth with a real thump.......Bring the bastards down.
A bit over the top in either case wouldn't you say? But it serves to make the below point.
Does the entire Muslim community deserve to suffer for the acts of the extremists? Even those Muslims who do condem the attacks? And how would you find out? Would there be special teams prowling the street asking them "Are you a illegal teacher..." Whoops sorry I meant "Do you support the terror attacks?" |
Yowsah, and I never thought I would be reaching out my hand to TUM, but I can't recall ever seeing a post that approached this lucidity. |
The esl teacher muslim analogy is absurd. The day 2 million permanent immigrants of one ethnicity and religion can be compared to a mixed bag of varied temporary economic visitors that are needed by the country for a valuable service, is obviously...silly. |
Like the other poster above you also missed the point. Because certain people of one particular minority act badly, does the entire community (be it Muslim or ESL teachers) deserve to suffer? I think though that you realized the point I was trying to make and rather than admit it, refused to consider it.
And if these terrorists were blowing up SUV's we'd see you praising them to the skies. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I'm all for policing people and kicking people out who actually do something, even if they verbally advocate (I take BB's distinction between justify and support to be important here) such bombings. |
This presupposes that you only hit them after they've bombed and killed,ie, you have to wait until you've lost the war before you can justify doing anything about it. Prevention is better than cure. Probably less expensive too.
| Quote: |
But actually kicking people out who haven't done anything? These people are our natural allies! They don't like the bombers either!
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-then why have secret opinion polls shown massive support for the bombers in the muslim population...of course they're not going to publicly voice support if they think they'll get sent to bangladesh or wherever. But do you think for one moment they'd hesitate to take up arms against the infidels if the call went out? No.
you're retaining a large section of population that by polls alone admit they would drive a sword into the heart of England if they felt like doing it, if the time was right. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:01 am Post subject: |
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Great to see that you can still take quotes out of context. As far as the "tipping point" goes, it's clearly not just Muslim communities who are unable to identify it, it seems like some ESL teachers can't as well.
Let's look at this article. First off the assistant commissioner stated that he was not saying that the lack of Muslim co-operation had hindered the police in their investigation of the London attacks.
Furthermore he identified three reasons why Muslim co-operation was limited. 1. They don't know how (in practical terms) to help the police.
2. Given the current atmosphere of hate and mistrust, they have wisely retreated to get a breathing space.
3. They are unable to identify the "tipping point". Given that hate crimes are a fairly new development in the West as well, it's not suprising that some Muslims are unable to identify it. Also one has to take into consideration, that what may be a hate crime in one culture, may not seen as such in another culture, thus leading to the problem of not being able to identify it.
As far as your first quote goes, the problem of not being able to identify the "tipping point" explains why most Muslims are unable to identify radical preachers. As for youth, most people would be unable to identify most youth who are at risk for most things, unless there are very clear signs. How many people pay that much attention to another person's children? And how does one differentiate between a "phase" and a deeping attachment to things that may be radical? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| Also one has to take into consideration, that what may be a hate crime in one culture, may not seen as such in another culture, thus leading to the problem of not being able to identify it. |
Given that half the Koran could be labelled 'hate speech', it could indeed be a problem for some muslims to identify what constitutes inciting hatred. For most of us 'Death to the Infidels' is pretty unambiguous. Quite frankly, I couldn't give a toss about 'their culture'. They are living in the UK now and they have got to root out the extremists from their midst and cooperate with the police if they wish to enjoy healthy relations with the rest of the public.
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| Given the current atmosphere of hate and mistrust, they have wisely retreated to get a breathing space. |
Despite the hyping up of 'Islamophobia', there have been few 'hate crimes' against the muslim populations. Time for the excuses to stop and action to be taken.
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| They are unable to identify the "tipping point". |
Is it really that hard? Once again, if Islamic clerics are talking about fighting Jihad and killing infidels then I think a line has been crossed. The problem is that for many muslims, moderate or not, loyalty to other muslims will come before loyalty to Britain or the safety of the public. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Because certain people of one particular minority act badly, does the entire community (be it Muslim or ESL teachers) deserve to suffer? |
That depends on what those actions are. If the actions of a few are relatively minor, then it makes little sense to clamp down on the majority. If the actions of a minority of a certain community threaten national security and the lives of innocent people it's a whole different ball game, and the entire community may have to suffer if the security of the nation is at stake. This is why, during WWII, Italians and Germans were interned in the UK. It was of course unfair, and by today's reckoning a gross infringement of human rights, but at a time of national crisis it was the right decision to take. We have, by no means, reached such a crisis in the UK, but at this time we must demand the cooperation of the muslim community. If such cooperation is not given, and the excuses and denial continue, people's patience will soon run out. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| I'm all for policing people and kicking people out who actually do something, even if they verbally advocate (I take BB's distinction between justify and support to be important here) such bombings. |
This presupposes that you only hit them after they've bombed and killed,ie, you have to wait until you've lost the war before you can justify doing anything about it. Prevention is better than cure. Probably less expensive too. |
You cannot discriminate millions on the basis of the actions of a few. The actual number of people who have blown themselves/others remains a very low percentage point.
We still have to retain the distinction between civilian population and militant. We still have to recognize fundamental civil rights. For someone who is guilty, well, I am not advocating mercy. But, persecuting too many innocents will drive people to extremism...in some ways it would be a self-fulfilling policy. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Given that half the Koran could be labelled 'hate speech', it could indeed be a problem for some muslims to identify what constitutes inciting hatred. |
This is the most hilarious thing I've read on the Forums for quite a while, including the daily diatribes from Joo Rhipp ... the poster seems to have no clue that his own discussion of hate speech is itself nothing but that.
HALF of the Koran, Big Guy? Is that exactly half or maybe a little less? Is it even close to half? Is it even close to 10%? Or 1%? It's a big book, after all, and I'm wondering if your penchant for numbers and percentages can elucidate us on exactly what percentage of the words in that book DO constitute the hate speech you describe.
After you finish your statistical analysis, please do the same on the Old Testament and let's see how big of a gap there is. Not much, I'm sure.
I'm still on the floor giggling at such ananity.
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| The problem is that for many muslims, moderate or not, loyalty to other muslims will come before loyalty to Britain or the safety of the public. |
More hilarity. The same has been said many times, and is still being spoken, but the targets were and are not muslims but Jews and Catholics. There were - at the time, serioius - arguments made against electing John Kennedy because some thought he'd be on the phone to the Pope every morning for advice about which legislation he should sign. Catholics, you see, have other loyalties that they place above the rest of us Americans.
Wake up. The majority of British muslims are smart enough to realize that supporting terror fanatics puts them in danger as well - even muslims ride subways and get on buses.
And that's aside from the clear knowledge what scary changes British society is in for if the reaction to terror allows racist nutballs (not referring to anyone here, of course) to take charge and make decisions for the country. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| the poster seems to have no clue that his own discussion of hate speech is itself nothing but that. |
Bizarre. In the Orwellian world of the uber liberal, it is 'hate speech' to point out the latent intolerance and hatred of a book that describes Jews as 'monkeys and pigs' and tells it's followers to cut off the hands and arms of infidels.
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| HALF of the Koran, Big Guy? |
It was an exaggeration obviously, but the point still stands. Muslims should not keep ranting about 'Islamophobia' when;
a) their holy book is full of the most virulent hatred
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b) there are hundreds of Islamic groups committed to such infidel hatred.
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| please do the same on the Old Testament and let's see how big of a gap there is. Not much, I'm sure. |
When hundreds of Christian extremist groups start using the Old Testament to justify rape, enslavement, mass murder, beheadings and ethnic cleansing on a global scale, then we'll start examining the Old Testament. If hundreds of Christian clergy give support to such violence, then we'd have to take a long hard look at that religion. But, as you well know, that is simply not the case.
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| There were - at the time, serioius - arguments made against electing John Kennedy because some thought he'd be on the phone to the Pope every morning for advice about which legislation he should sign. |
And such fears were proved to be unfounded. However, that does not mean that similar fears about muslims are equally unfounded. The global 'Ummah' remains a very powerful force of loyalty for many muslims, which supersedes that of the nation state.
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| if the reaction to terror allows racist nutballs (not referring to anyone here, of course) to take charge and make decisions for the country. |
You do realise, of course, that muslims do not consitute a 'race'. |
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