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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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 Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:31 am Post subject: |
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Are you saying that people who express pro-Tory or pro-Labour opinions are denied welfare benefits?
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The deal is.. you keep Labour in power and the checks and the relatives keep coming.
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| Does this mean that arabs who accuse the the West of this, that, and the other thing are making a conscious decision to tell lies? Like, they sit down and say "well, I don't REALLY think that Israel is a tool of western imperialism, but since lying isn't condemned by the Koran I think I'll just tell people that's what I believe"? |
The following is a brazen bold face lie and it went straignt to Mecca. This was no misunderstanding or misinterpretation. It was an intentional verbal assault with genuinely no truth intended.
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Kano shuns Nigeria polio campaign
15 million children in West Africa are at risk on contracting polio
The northern Nigerian state of Kano is not part of a new polio vaccination campaign being conducted by the World Health Organisation after health fears.
Muslim leaders in the historic city say the vaccine has been laced with anti-fertility drugs. Scientific tests in Nigeria approved the injection.
Nigeria has the world's highest number of new polio cases, centred in Kano, and it is spreading to other countries.
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:01 am Post subject: |
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The following is a brazen bold face lie and it went straignt to Mecca. This was no misunderstanding or misinterpretation. It was an intentional verbal assault with genuinely no truth intended.
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Kano shuns Nigeria polio campaign
15 million children in West Africa are at risk on contracting polio
The northern Nigerian state of Kano is not part of a new polio vaccination campaign being conducted by the World Health Organisation after health fears.
Muslim leaders in the historic city say the vaccine has been laced with anti-fertility drugs. Scientific tests in Nigeria approved the injection.
Nigeria has the world's highest number of new polio cases, centred in Kano, and it is spreading to other countries.
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So, some guy made up a fake story, and it "went straight to mecca"(whatever that means). Do you know for a fact all(or even a majority) of the people involved in spreading this story knew that it was a lie? Because if so many people are conscious of the story's falsity, who exactly are they lying to?
Hey, and what about those goddam lying Americans? THIS hoax even made it to the floor of the US congress!!
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In 1995, U.S. Representative Frank Wolf of Virginia raised a short-lived media ruckus by asserting he'd encountered credible reports of Chinese hospitals' selling human fetuses to be used as health food. Citing a 12 April 1995 article from Eastern Express, an English-language daily in Hong Kong, he demanded the Clinton administration and international human rights groups investigate these allegations.
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:42 am Post subject: |
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I can tell you didn't do any research. Arab-Muslim conspiracy theories are the norm. Look at the quote below. There are false accusations in all of these conspiracy theories and Muslims ethics allow for what Christians consider terribely loose facts.
This polio accusation is very serious. Its an accusation of chemical and biological warfare. Warfare means killing each other. The West has been accused of an attack that didn't occur.
The lie was enforced by Muslim clerics in the state of Kano whose worshippers then went to Mecca and worshippers from Indonesia got the infection and took it home straight from Mecca. The clerics were told the vaccine was fine and they were told so explicitly and even then they continued.
Thank you for your example of the US making a false accusation but you had to go back ten years to find one and it didn't result in hundreds of kids getting polio. All Muslim kids I will add. This what your help brings.
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Baghdad's Easy Fall Fuels Arab Conspiracy Theories
By Paul Taylor, Reuters, April 11, 2003 - 4:35 PM (ET)
CAIRO, Egypt - As Arabs struggle to come to terms with the stunning fall of Baghdad, conspiracy theories are rife about why Saddam Hussein disappeared and his security forces put up so little fight.
Many refuse to believe how Iraqi defenders melted away before U.S. invaders and are groping for explanations in either a betrayal by the country's political or military leaders, or some secret deal to smuggle Saddam out of the country.
Lebanese Parliament speaker Nabih Berri was among the first to air such rumors of a covert arrangement to bundle Saddam out of Iraq in exchange for an end to the bloodshed.
As U.S. tanks swept almost unopposed into Baghdad Wednesday, Berri suggested Saddam might have taken refuge in the Russian Embassy, prompting an immediate denial from Moscow.
"Before all else, you must know why the Russian ambassador returned to Baghdad and what (U.S. national security adviser) Condoleezza Rice did in Moscow. Is Saddam Hussein in the embassy?" Lebanon's national news agency quoted Berri as saying.
An aide to Berri joined the dots, saying his boss meant to suggest Saddam had been granted sanctuary in a U.S.-Russian deal in return for an end to Republican Guard resistance.
It was neither the first nor the last such theory in circulation as Arab media and citizens sought to explain what has been widely perceived as a humiliation.
The respected London-based, pan-Arab daily al-Hayat spoke in a front-page banner headline Friday of a purported "deal" that brought about the collapse of Iraqi resistance.
ARAB STREET
"Informed Iraqi sources said the absence of an effective role of the Republican Guard over the past three weeks of the war can be attributed to contacts between the 'allies' and some leaders of these units, during which they gave assurances not to harm them," al-Hayat said.
"What reinforces this news is the disappearance of large numbers of Iraqi forces as well as their heavy equipment as the attacking forces advanced," it said.
The newspaper said senior Iraqi officers allegedly involved in such a deal might have been promised a role in postwar Iraqi security forces needed to end anarchy and restore order.
Commentators on pan-Arab satellite channel al-Arabiya talked in shock and disgust of a "deal" as they watched U.S. Marines and Iraqis bringing down a giant statue of Saddam, hours after the entire Iraqi leadership had vanished.
With reputable media airing such theories, it is no surprise that many in the so-called "Arab street" are convinced there was some plot behind the fall of Baghdad.
Saad al-Nayly, a student in the Saudi capital Riyadh, said: "It's not reasonable that a small town like Umm Qasr can hold out for two weeks, then the capital which has the army and fedayeen falls in a few hours."
Armed Iraqis in parts of Umm Qasr, the most southerly Iraqi town, resisted British forces for several days.
"Saddam gave them Iraq in return for a deal to save his life," said Sahar Imam, a communications expert in Amman.
"We had hoped he would have a grain of nationalism in the last minute. ... We did not believe that they would enter Baghdad with this ease and we feel he handed over Baghdad with his own hands," he said.
Many Arabs would apparently rather believe in a betrayal than in the superior power of the U.S. military, which pounded Iraqi command centers and Republican Guard units with air raids and artillery for almost three weeks before capturing Baghdad.
Much of Iraq's military hardware was destroyed out of sight of television cameras, and Arab television stations have shown little footage of the wreckage, fueling the speculation in many Arab minds that a deal was struck.
"The game is over and it's a sellout," said Salem Khaled, an angry Jordanian clerk.
"Either Saddam is an agent or this is a soap opera," said Mohammad Ateyeh, a government clerk in Jordan. "Why didn't he resist and why did he allow the Americans to pass over the bridges? Why didn't he dig trenches? He had missiles, why did he not use them? This man has cheated the whole Arab nation."
"Arabs and Muslims do not believe what has happened and the coming days will reveal these secrets," Amman shopkeeper Jalal Aboud said. "I don't think Saddam was killed as some believe. He's hiding in a place known only too well to the Americans."
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:03 am Post subject: |
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The lie was enforced by Muslim clerics in the state of Kano whose worshippers then went to Mecca and worshippers from Indonesia got the infection and took it home straight from Mecca. The clerics were told the vaccine was fine and they were told so explicitly and even then they continued.
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In order for the clerics to be deliberately lying(which is the crux of your allegation), they would have to have known for a fact that the story was false, and continued to propagate it. Why exactly would they do this? Simply because they want to see other Muslims get polio?
Do you have a link about the polio story?
As for the "fall of Baghdad" rumours, again all it proves is that a few Muslims make up stories and many more believe them. That's not quite the same thing as your original allegation that Muslims in general think that lying is morally acceptable. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:17 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure you have a small amount of glee in making the statement that I said "All Muslims are liars" because that makes me look like a wild eyed reactionary that people can laugh at. "goddamn" is offensive to Christians but you don't seem to be concerned about that. Its a violation of the ten Commandments. You thought you'd pull a fast one there huh? If I were Muslim, you'd be at my feet.
However, isn't it reasonable to assume that two different cultures have a different defintions of truth, honesty and lies and that these two different definitions will eventually conflict? Worse, what if after a good review of the two definitions, one actually comes out better?
I'd like to say that truth is ultimately has a subjective definition but I cannot say that completely. I really can't.
You can lookup Nigeria-polio on your own. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Hey, and what about those goddam lying Americans? THIS hoax even made it to the floor of the US congress!!
Quote:
In 1995, U.S. Representative Frank Wolf of Virginia raised a short-lived media ruckus by asserting he'd encountered credible reports of Chinese hospitals' selling human fetuses to be used as health food. Citing a 12 April 1995 article from Eastern Express, an English-language daily in Hong Kong, he demanded the Clinton administration and international human rights groups investigate these allegations.
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In order for the clerics to be deliberately lying(which is the crux of your allegation), they would have to have known for a fact that the story was false, and continued to propagate it.
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If Rep. Frank Wolf found 'credible reports' in a Hong Kong newspaper and believed them, then was he telling lies? By your reasoning, which I agree with, he couldn't be accused of lying. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| I'm sure you have a small amount of glee in making the statement that I said "All Muslims are liars" because that makes me look like a wild eyed reactionary that people can laugh at. |
Well, let's take a look at what you DID say:
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| Christian dogma asserts that "Thou shalt not bare false witness". That means you don't accuse people unless you have a very solid argument. Muslims don't have that commandment or comprable rule, thus its likely don't have a problem in engaging in accusatory and excessive whiney behavior. |
Okay. You said Muslims "don't have a problem in enagaging in accusatory and and excessive behavior". I suppose that "accusatory and excessive" could mean something other than lying, but then why would you attribute this behavior to the lack of a prohibition against false witness?
Last edited by On the other hand on Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| If Rep. Frank Wolf found 'credible reports' in a Hong Kong newspaper and believed them, then was he telling lies? By your reasoning, which I agree with, he couldn't be accused of lying. |
Yeah, you're right. Since the only provable lie originated in Hong Kong, I should've said "those lying Hong Kong people".
I do think the situation is still basically the same as Dulouz's "made it all the way to mecca" vaccine rumour. Someone started a rumour, which eventually made it to the highest institutional levels. Until shown otherwise, I am assuming that most of the people who passed on the vaccination myth believed it to be true. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Its simple, the Ten Commandments are part of Western culture. There are athiests and the like that deny this but strip the title away and we are left with the skeleton of Western ethics. You might not like the idea of god but not killing and stealing and not commiting adultery etc are norms that you'd find agreeable.
Bearing false witness is a commandment so it has this very seminal characteristic to it in regard to our ethics. Its very fundamental to western culture even after the god part has been taken off. Thats why.
You might not be a church goer but the church goer got to you before you could defect. They've influenced you or have influence over you whether you like it or not. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:29 am Post subject: |
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[this blast from the past quote:
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| This society within a society has been encouraged to revel in its alleged victimhood, and, due to its lack of maturity, has never looked at its own faults but blames outsiders for all its ills |
sounds a little familiar....
Sure we don't put bombs on buses, instead we, beat the crappa outta people, steal their women, get drunk and vandalize stuff, do drugs, etc... |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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A Yemeni speaking out against the conspiricy theories:
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I have been reading some of your writings at the Yemen Times. You seem to be a very knowledgeable person but let me tell you what I think of your writings. I think that your writings are very much pre-occupied with conspiracy theories. In each and every article I have read for you there is the same flavour of explaining many of the failures that we have in our country by accusing the Zionists and the US. Let me tell you what I think about that. The Arabs and Muslims are already brainwashed with these conspiracy theories, which I think are not productive and will not take us anywhere close to changing our situation. I think we need writings which address our own problems and that explain our role in our own failures. I think that the Muslims and Arabs are the cause for their own failures because they are under corrupt and undemocratic regimes and the public are too brainwashed by our system of education to be able to think of the right way to change.
I am a Yemeni citizen, very proud to be Yemeni and a Muslim. |
Letter to Yemen Times |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: BBC Poll - Brits like Multicultism then ask what it is |
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| dulouz wrote: |
| The UK is one of the most important countries today and this a central... |
No comment |
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