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sheba
Joined: 16 May 2005
Location: Here there and everywhere!
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 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:36 pm Post subject: How to handle a difficult class...? |
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So I have this one class which happens to be my largest with 14 students. From what I can tell there are only 2 students who are remotely interested in doing the work or showing me respect. The students do not do the work, they will not speak English or answer questions, or even repeat after me. They just sit there and talk all lesson.... They are known as the difficult classes even with the Korean teachers, and their book is easy because of their behaviour. I am not allowed to punish them and they do not respond to me raising my voice or scolding them... The are grade 6 students, and as far as I can tell their English isnt very good at all.
Lukily I only see them once a week, but it is the most dreaded hour of my week....
Any ideas about what I can do? How I can motivate them? How I can discipline them? |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: How to handle a difficult class...? |
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| sheba wrote: |
So I have this one class which happens to be my largest with 14 students. From what I can tell there are only 2 students who are remotely interested in doing the work or showing me respect. The students do not do the work, they will not speak English or answer questions, or even repeat after me. They just sit there and talk all lesson.... They are known as the difficult classes even with the Korean teachers, and their book is easy because of their behaviour. I am not allowed to punish them and they do not respond to me raising my voice or scolding them... The are grade 6 students, and as far as I can tell their English isnt very good at all.
Lukily I only see them once a week, but it is the most dreaded hour of my week....
Any ideas about what I can do? How I can motivate them? How I can discipline them? |
If it's only one hour a week, why not just have fun and take the piss out of your hogwan's useless approach? Do your lesson planning for your good classes right in front of them, let them disrupt other classes, invite a Korean teacher in to show you how it's done, go and get wongjongnim-babo every lesson to give them a pointless talking-to.
"not allowed to punish them" + 14 mostly troublesome 6th grade students = nothing will get accomplished. You need to see this as your hogwan's problem, not yours. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| "not allowed to punish them" + 14 mostly troublesome 6th grade students = nothing will get accomplished. You need to see this as your hogwan's problem, not yours. |
I agree.
This 'no punishment' thing is a farce. It could only have been thought of by someone unfamiliar with kids but whose eye is on money, not education. Naturally, positive reinforcement is best, and highly effective, but there are students who don't respond and situations that warrent some punishment. Putting unmotivated students in a class with someone who doesn't speak the students' language and telling the teacher, "You have no power or authority, but 'make English fun" is silly. Babo, indeed.
Dump the problem back on the person who created it. But do it in a positive, constructive way if possible. Something like this--
Make a mental list of the behaviors and go in to the office, sit down and say, "Wonjangnim, how are you? We have a problem. I need your expert advice. Min-Soo does.... What do you advise me to do about it? Seok-Yoo does.... etc."
When he/she comes back with, "You are the teacher", respond with, "At home a teacher would..., but that isn't the Korean way. Please teach me the Korean way to handle this problem." [He is not going to tell you that the Korean way is to beat the crap out of the students. Since he has no idea, you can then suggest some punishments short of beating.] |
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trevorcollins
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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If it's a 50 minute class, like say the class starts at 3.00 and finishes at 3.50, write 3.45 on the board. Write two rules underneath. 1)-No Korean, 2)-No noise. Every time they break one of the rules, add a minute to that time. If they are good the whole class leaves 5 minutes early, if they're bad the whole class leaves late, and they can see their progress at all times. Be consistent about letting them go the time you say they can, and be prepared to lose a few minutes of your break the first couple of times as they test you. Once they pick up on the class "rules" you'll be amazed that it's even the same class.
I think people focus too much on discipline meaning punishment. It's all carrot and stick, if there's only negative implications for them being bad they'll rebel. If there's positive also for them being good the discipline is twice as effective. And they may just start to learn something. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| With my middle-school classes, I keep extra work aside for them. It's rare, but once in awhile I'll get a class where everyone is talking over me and going on like I'm not even there. In those instances, I stop teaching, for the rest of the entire class if I have to. At the end of class when they're getting packed up and ready to leave, I'll say to them "Are you finished? Can we start studying now?". I'll make them write or copy out an apology, quiz them on the apology to make sure they understand why I'm keeping them late, and then I'll make them do whatever work they were supposed to be doing in their regular class time in complete silence. (Hence the extra work I keep aside for them in case I need it.) I've kept classes for over an hour late before. Nobody likes to have their time taken away, including me, so this has been effective. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| bosintang wrote: |
| With my middle-school classes, I keep extra work aside for them. It's rare, but once in awhile I'll get a class where everyone is talking over me and going on like I'm not even there. In those instances, I stop teaching, for the rest of the entire class if I have to. At the end of class when they're getting packed up and ready to leave, I'll say to them "Are you finished? Can we start studying now?". I'll make them write or copy out an apology, quiz them on the apology to make sure they understand why I'm keeping them late, and then I'll make them do whatever work they were supposed to be doing in their regular class time in complete silence. (Hence the extra work I keep aside for them in case I need it.) I've kept classes for over an hour late before. Nobody likes to have their time taken away, including me, so this has been effective. |
This is exactly what I tried with a farcical middle school class. Wongjongnim-babo immediately undermined me. I demanded a meeting with him right away and told him I wasn't tolerating it. He said he'd fix the problem. A week later he got my letter of resignation. When I think back to it, I should really send the little brats a nice gift, as they sure sped up my inevitable process of leaving and moving on to a real job. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| trevorcollins wrote: |
| If it's a 50 minute class, like say the class starts at 3.00 and finishes at 3.50, write 3.45 on the board. Write two rules underneath. 1)-No Korean, 2)-No noise. Every time they break one of the rules, add a minute to that time. If they are good the whole class leaves 5 minutes early, if they're bad the whole class leaves late, and they can see their progress at all times. Be consistent about letting them go the time you say they can, and be prepared to lose a few minutes of your break the first couple of times as they test you. Once they pick up on the class "rules" you'll be amazed that it's even the same class. |
I've used this method with my middle schoolers and older elementary students. But I actually take the clock off the wall and move the minute hands back one minute at a time. When they whine about missing the bus, I advise them to stop talking.
Not a bad method. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| trevorcollins wrote: |
I think people focus too much on discipline meaning punishment. It's all carrot and stick, if there's only negative implications for them being bad they'll rebel. If there's positive also for them being good the discipline is twice as effective. And they may just start to learn something. |
The idea of discipline in terms of reward&punishment is awfully old-fashioned, isn't it? I can't recall too many of my own teachers using these kinds of methods except the really old-fashioned ones on their way out.
Ok, I'm a bleeding heart liberal when it comes to children's education, but here goes:
Instead of thinking of discipline in terms of reward & punishment, why not think of it in terms of routine&responsibility?
Here's some ideas:
Lead from example. Be prepared and professional. No matter what you privately think of them, muster all the enthusiasm you can for your classes. From both the students and your perspective they're not to be treated as an obstacle between your bottle of beer and their beds, but as something that is important. Do your best to make the classroom as professional looking as possible, an atmosphere meant for *them* to learn in. Little kindie chairs and tables aren't going to cut it for middle-school students. Don't condone students scribbling over their desks, books or handouts.
Treat all your students with respect, again, even if you privately hate the little *beeps*. You're the adult and teacher, so it has to start with you. If they say something disrepectful or innappropriate to you, of course, let them know that, but don't expect that you are going to change your students, and certainly not overnight. Try to gain respect through example rather than enforcement.
Set a good routine. You have X amount of material that must be covered and that material WILL be finished PROPERLY before class is finished. Give regular homework and enforce it.
When you have to discipline the class or individuals, avoid the temptation to use sarcasm. Be serious and strict, but keep a compassionate side. Whatever you do, don't patronise your students. Treat them as thinking, rational human beings who, like adults, sometimes make mistakes. |
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Bunnymonster
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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LOL @ bosintang, have you ever worked with children??
| bosintang wrote: |
Set a good routine. You have X amount of material that must be covered and that material WILL be finished PROPERLY before class is finished. Give regular homework and enforce it. |
How do you plan on 'enforcing it' when your students refuse to listen to you or co-operate and your management refuse to let you keep your students late?
Trevor Collin's ide worked wonders for my troublesome class the one time I used it, unfortunately the next class we used it, one of my students stood up and walked out, I follow him to bring him back to class and my Wonjang sends him home with 'oh he doesn't want to stay late, let him go home now' unsurprisingly everyone else followed him......
My advice is to prepare you class properly, turn up and teach it, don't worry if anyone is listening literally run a monologue, or as I do ask questions, wait for an answer, repeat the question till someone says something, invariably in Korean or a mangled mess, and reply with "no, I'm afriad not, its 'the plane is red'". Main thing to remember is that the objective is to make you lose your cool, if you react to them they will become a hundred times worse, the best you can do is try to swap your good kids for someone elses trouble makers and create a proper dumping class............ |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Bunnymonster wrote: |
LOL @ bosintang, have you ever worked with children??
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Of course I have. In fact, I've taught the worst of the worst. Middle-school students in a sort-of second-chance program.
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| bosintang wrote: |
Set a good routine. You have X amount of material that must be covered and that material WILL be finished PROPERLY before class is finished. Give regular homework and enforce it. |
How do you plan on 'enforcing it' when your students refuse to listen to you or co-operate and your management refuse to let you keep your students late?
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Well, when it comes to management, it's a good point. But some things are worth going to war with your boss over, and this is one of them. I'd (and have) simply refuse to teach the class if they're not going to let me run my class the way I want it. You have to draw the line somewhere, and for me that's where it is. The classroom is my business and although I'm always open to suggestions and alternatives, I will NOT be micromanaged.
| Quote: |
My advice is to prepare you class properly, turn up and teach it, don't worry if anyone is listening literally run a monologue, or as I do ask questions, wait for an answer, repeat the question till someone says something, invariably in Korean or a mangled mess, and reply with "no, I'm afriad not, its 'the plane is red'".
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If you'd rather be driving rusty nails in your eyeballs rather than be teaching the class you're teaching, imagine how your students feel. |
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Bunnymonster
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| bosintang wrote: |
| Well, when it comes to management, it's a good point. But some things are worth going to war with your boss over, and this is one of them. I'd (and have) simply refuse to teach the class if they're not going to let me run my class the way I want it. You have to draw the line somewhere, and for me that's where it is. The classroom is my business and although I'm always open to suggestions and alternatives, I will NOT be micromanaged. |
Did you win? Or did you end up having to find a new job, because I'm pretty sure that the options open to me are teach the class or resign. Aside from the one class which is basically a wasted hour of my time I like my job and everyone else responds fine to my disciplinary structure (stickers, teams 'fun' copying exercises...... etc), I'm not prepared to jepardise that over one student, who has no respect or fear of me or the korean teachers nor does he want to learn any english, and his younger sidekicks. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| bosintang wrote: |
Well, when it comes to management, it's a good point. But some things are worth going to war with your boss over, and this is one of them. I'd (and have) simply refuse to teach the class if they're not going to let me run my class the way I want it. You have to draw the line somewhere, and for me that's where it is. The classroom is my business and although I'm always open to suggestions and alternatives, I will NOT be micromanaged.
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And by the time you get to two or three classes, you might as well be resigning.
I just can't help but wonder just what the hell it is some of these parents think they're paying for. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Bunnymonster wrote: |
| Trevor Collin's ide worked wonders for my troublesome class the one time I used it, unfortunately the next class we used it, one of my students stood up and walked out, I follow him to bring him back to class and my Wonjang sends him home with 'oh he doesn't want to stay late, let him go home now' unsurprisingly everyone else followed him...... |
I block the door when I make them stay late.
Actually, I'll share something that has worked a little bit for one of my bad classes. They complained that I'd bought pizza and ice cream for other classes, which I've done on a few occasions. I had a Korean teacher explain it was because the other classes listen well and do their work, so I wanted to reward them, and I'd do the same if they would just straighten up. Their behavior has gotten a lot better, and now if they start to slip, I just sigh and say, "And to think, I was going to buy you ice cream tomorrow... maybe next week." |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
| Bunnymonster wrote: |
| Trevor Collin's ide worked wonders for my troublesome class the one time I used it, unfortunately the next class we used it, one of my students stood up and walked out, I follow him to bring him back to class and my Wonjang sends him home with 'oh he doesn't want to stay late, let him go home now' unsurprisingly everyone else followed him...... |
I block the door when I make them stay late. |
I did this, too, when I taught hogwan. I gave up when I realised that I'd have to block management from the other side. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Bunnymonster wrote: |
Did you win?
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Well, yes and no. The incident was over one kid in particular. The outcome: the kid took a short "vacation". At the end of the month I had my schedule re-shuffled and surprise, surprise, I was no longer teaching that class. No, I didn't win in that the problem wasn't solved. Yes I won in that it was no longer my problem.
| Quote: |
Or did you end up having to find a new job, because I'm pretty sure that the options open to me are teach the class or resign. Aside from the one class which is basically a wasted hour of my time I like my job and everyone else responds fine to my disciplinary structure (stickers, teams 'fun' copying exercises...... etc), I'm not prepared to jepardise that over one student, who has no respect or fear of me or the korean teachers nor does he want to learn any english, and his younger sidekicks. |
Well, it sounds like you chose your battles. We all do. That being said you don't have to entirely give up on the class. You can push your wonjang as far as you are willing to go on the issue. Like you said, prepare for you class as best as you can, and push your way through it. If the class is completely out of focus, you could try to find an activity that most of the class enjoys and use it as a catalyst to get the class re-focused on learning. You may not find it, but it never hurts to try, and many of your students may appreciate your effort.
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
And by the time you get to two or three classes, you might as well be resigning.
I just can't help but wonder just what the hell it is some of these parents think they're paying for.
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I know there are some god-awful hagwons out there, but really, how many people have more than 1 or 2 nightmare classes a day? I used to teach 9 or 10 different classes a day (10 classes!), and at the most there was only one or two that I would really dread teaching, and it wasn't all the fault of the hagwon I worked for. I have to take my fair share of credit for them. |
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