Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee]

There was cooperation or talk of it between the two. They both hated the US more than they hated each other.

[Gopher]

This issue gets into absurdities.

If we are sympathizing with Sheehan, with her pain over losing her son, or with her frustrations with Bush's insensitivity, then that's one thing.

If we are giving her credibility as some kind of expert on U.S.-Middle East relations, then we're getting on the same ridiculous ground as we were when Jennifer Flowers went on Nightline or some other serious news show to tell us her theory on Clinton's foreign policy...

So if she is using her son's dead body as a pedastal to mount a soap box, and people with larger issues and agendas are apparently using her because of her visibility in the press, then that's a very problematic thing, I think. If we're looking to explain why it's difficult for the media to cover this story, that might be one part of the explanation...What are her qualifications to speak as a Mid-East area specialist and policy analyst? What documentary evidence is she citing to back up her analysis about Israel, etc.?

It is common for innocent people like Sheehan to get caught up in larger leftist agendas, unwittingly...just look at the making of Rigoberta Menchu's book, made esp. significant when Menchu denounced the feminists, if memory serves.

[On the other hand]

[Gopher]

[On the other hand]

[Ya-ta Boy]

[Gopher]

[The Bobster]

Another mother of a fallen soldier joins Cindy at Crawford.

Sher's death brings me on an unlikely journey to Crawford, Tex. I join Cindy Sheehan, who has established a camp here.

My family is gathering with me as we hold our own vigil. We believe that we finally deserve a meeting with the President, one that has been denied us for the last 16 months.

We bring with us here the desire to share our humble story. We want the President to hear us talk about Sherwood. Perhaps he can answer some questions for us. We want to know why Sher, a case worker for the mentally handicapped, had to say goodbye to his wife and 10-year-old son to participate in the negligent endeavor that is the Iraq War.

We'd like to know what he finds noble about instigating and maintaining a war with a country that posed no threat to our country.

Frank Rich in his recent NY Times column :

CINDY SHEEHAN couldn't have picked a more apt date to begin the vigil that ambushed a president: Aug. 6 was the fourth anniversary of that fateful 2001 Crawford vacation day when George W. Bush responded to an intelligence briefing titled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States" by going fishing. On this Aug. 6 the president was no less determined to shrug off bad news. Though 14 marine reservists had been killed days earlier by a roadside bomb in Haditha, his national radio address that morning made no mention of Iraq. Once again Mr. Bush was in his bubble, ensuring that he wouldn't see Ms. Sheehan coming. So it goes with a president who hasn't foreseen any of the setbacks in the war he fabricated against an enemy who did not attack inside the United States in 2001.

When these setbacks happen in Iraq itself, the administration punts. But when they happen at home, there's a game plan. Once Ms. Sheehan could no longer be ignored, the Swift Boating began. Character assassination is the Karl Rove tactic of choice, eagerly mimicked by his media surrogates, whenever the White House is confronted by a critic who challenges it on matters of war. The Swift Boating is especially vicious if the critic has more battle scars than a president who connived to serve stateside and a vice president who had "other priorities" during Vietnam.

The most prominent smear victims have been Bush political opponents with heroic Vietnam résumés: John McCain, Max Cleland, John Kerry. But the list of past targets stretches from the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke to Specialist Thomas Wilson, the grunt who publicly challenged Donald Rumsfeld about inadequately armored vehicles last December. The assault on the whistle-blower Joseph Wilson - the diplomat described by the first President Bush as "courageous" and "a true American hero" for confronting Saddam to save American hostages in 1991 - was so toxic it may yet send its perpetrators to jail.

True to form, the attack on Cindy Sheehan surfaced early on Fox News, where she was immediately labeled a "crackpot" by Fred Barnes. The right-wing blogosphere quickly spread tales of her divorce, her angry Republican in-laws, her supposed political flip-flops, her incendiary sloganeering and her association with known ticket-stub-carrying attendees of "Fahrenheit 9/11." Rush Limbaugh went so far as to declare that Ms. Sheehan's "story is nothing more than forged documents - there's nothing about it that's real."

But this time the Swift Boating failed, utterly, and that failure is yet another revealing historical marker in this summer's collapse of political support for the Iraq war.

Cindy said this in her blog, which is not only being published at Micheal Moore but also The Huffington Post, Daily Koz, and likely elsewhere as weel ... and I've been feeling the same for a while now :

"I got an email the other day and it said, "Cindy if you didn't use so much profanity... there's people on the fence that get offended."

"And you know what I said? "You know what? You know what, god damn it? How in the world is anybody still sitting on that fence?"

"If you fall on the side that is pro-George and pro-war, you get your ass over to Iraq, and take the place of somebody who wants to come home. And if you fall on the side that is against this war and against George Bush, stand up and speak out."

Another part of her blog :

Another thing is that the Israel thing has not died. I did not say that my son died for Israel. I have never said it, I don't think it, I don't believe it. It is just another lie, smear tactic from the right. It needs to die right now. It's not the truth. I stand by everything that I have said. But I will not stand by things that I haven't said. I am not anti-Semitic. I am just anti-killing.
The smear is not going to go away. The people inventing it are desperate and have nothing else.

[Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee]

Is their anyone out there who thinks that Wikipedia is part of "the conspiracy" against her? This is what she has said.

[Gopher]

deleted

[Summer Wine]

I have read that parents wish to know why thier sons and daughters are fighting in Iraq? Whats it for? If the American Government gets up and says the reason, will that satisfy them and will they csupport thier childrens place in Iraq? If the American President gets up and says yes, we misled you but now these are the absolute reasons we are staying in Iraq. Will the democrats and antiwar people say, OK, now we know and while we won't support you, we will no longer complain that we are in there because of a lie and we wont protest for troops to come back?

Is there really a good reason to keep on slaming the US Government about thier position in Iraq, if they say their reason, or will everyone keep on saying that they are lying and bring the troops out?

One final question that I have is that I never see in any argument by the left is what do they want to happen in Iraq, if the US pull out and how likely do they believe that Al Quada (?) will end the fighting in Iraq if the US leave?Will they support an International force entering Iraq to protect the innocents? Or is this just a massive we are right and told you so fest, with no real consideration or concern for what happens if America runs away with its tail between its legs.

e.g Lebanon, US and French Peacekeepers pulled out because of the bombings, was there peace? no, there was an enforced military dictatorship by Syria until just recently. What will the end game be for Iraq?

[On the other hand]

[Gopher]

Real Reasons for Wars

If you review Kubrick's 2001: a Space Odyssey, you will note that the monolith first becomes interested in primates when they are divided into several groupings, fighting each other over territory and natural resources.

They fought to defend and/or expand their territories and control over water.

Except for the fact that nations have felt the need to "justify" warfare to their populations since approximately the 1500s, little has changed since the time of Kubrick's not so fictitious primate wars...

So take away the pretexts, take away the religious intolerance, take away the nationalism, and what remains are six billion people collected into several "tribes," who realize that there may not quite be enough to go around, and there you go. It still hasn't been worked out. But it's only been about seven million years, which, geologically, is not much time at all. So Marx was basically right in his analysis that it all comes down to economics, and everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

The real question, then, is not why we are in Iraq (which is merely the sideshow of the moment) but rather "How's it going to end?" Are we going to solve these issues and learn to coexist before we invent or disperse the technology that can end it all with the push of a button or the release of a chemical or a pernicious new germ (since I'm using film, how about 12 Monkeys as a reference?)? Are we going self-destruct or are we going to come together and make it? If the latter, then how?

[igotthisguitar]

Joan Baez Sings at War Protest Near Bush Ranch
President's backers continue their efforts
By Angela K. Brown, Associated Press | August 22, 2005

CRAWFORD, Texas -- Iraq war protesters camping out near President Bush's ranch are getting support from a prominent figure from the anti-Vietnam War movement: folk singer Joan Baez.



''In the first march I went to [opposing Vietnam], there were 10 of us. This is huge," Baez told relatives of fallen US soldiers yesterday before performing a free evening concert in Bush's adopted hometown.

About 500 people attended the concert on a 1-acre lot offered by a landowner who opposes the war. Not far away, protesters continued a camp-out started by grieving mother Cindy Sheehan.

Meanwhile, more Bush supporters arrived at a downtown pro-Bush camp. As of yesterday afternoon, more than 150 people had visited the large tent with ''God Bless Our President!" and ''God Bless Our Troops" banners and a life-size cardboard cutout of Bush.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/08/22/joan_baez_sings_at_war_protest_near_bush_ranch/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+National+News

[The Bobster]