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elric
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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 Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:23 am Post subject: Hagwon vs Public school: I can't decide |
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I hate to start up the debate but could someone point me to a link where this debate has been fought. Or else help me decide.
1.8 million job at very nice Daejeon Hagwon teaching middle school 6hrs teaching/day.
edit: + 2 million won in possible incentives
Or
2.0 million public school job in the middle of no where in the South teaching high school 4 hrs teaching/day.
I'm not a party person but I do need a place to work out. Is the +0.2 million and public school security worth living in Jeollanamdo. Its my first time in Korea so its hard to decide.
Last edited by elric on Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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keithinkorea
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:17 am Post subject: |
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If you're in the middle of nowhere you might have a hard time, but thats a nice schedule if you're not expected to hang around all day twiddling your thumbs. If you're in the MONW then it might be really hard dealing with it, I guess it depends on what you're into. I think it might be challenging for most new arrivals here.
Don't take the Hakwon job for that terrible pay! If you're actually teaching in the classroom time for 6 hours a day then that is average pay for above average class time. If you have any experience elsewhere or any credentials that'll get you more cash (B ed or Celta) then ask for more. Middle school students can be a nightmare unless they're really good kids. I'd personally rather teach elementary level students as they're more fun and less self conscious about actually speaking in general.
A few questions...
Are there any other foreign teachers at either of the places you're considering?
What do you know about the areas? Can you easily travel to other places? Have you been in contact with current teachers at these places? -they're the best to give you the lowdown.
I wouldn't personally consider the hakwon job as the money is too low. Are the accomodation and other benefits exceptional? If not look elsewhere. |
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elric
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for responding. I'm not sure what MONW is?
The Hagwon is shared apartment, but clean and tidy 5 minutes away. Very nice people and very nice teachers. I've talked to the ESL teachers and its totally laid back no dress code. Everything seems too good to be true. Very nice director no problems whatsover.
The Public School is also very nice. Private apartment again very clean. I've talked to 1 other ESL teacher. American based recruiter. Everything again seems too good to be true.
I've got a BEd so ya the 1.8 seemed like a lowball but Daejeon has some very nice places. IMAX, soccer stadium, etc - but I can always visit. Should I use the 2.0 offer as leverage and ask for more? How much can you haggle without being balked at? |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| I really wouldn't recommend a public school for someone new to the country, especially if it's in an isolated area. You can't be sure that your co workers will speak English, and it's much easier to polish your classroom management skills in a room with ten kids, than in a room with 40+ |
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Hyeon Een
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Hagwon vs Public school: I can't decide |
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| elric wrote: |
| I'm not a party person but I do need a place to work out. Is the +0.2 million and public school security worth living in Jeollanamdo. Its my first time in Korea so its hard to decide. |
Nothing wrong with jeollanamdo! Hundreds of teachers and perhaps thousands of engineers live/work here. There's quite a few decent sized cities. Of course there are some mighty small towns here too, like every other province. Which city would you be in? If it really is somewhere tiny I wouldn't recommend it. But some of the medium or large cities sound easilt adequate for your needs.
-HE |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| elric wrote: |
Thanks for responding. I'm not sure what MONW is?
The Hagwon is shared apartment, but clean and tidy 5 minutes away. Very nice people and very nice teachers. I've talked to the ESL teachers and its totally laid back no dress code. Everything seems too good to be true. Very nice director no problems whatsover.
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Shared apartment and 1.8 mil is not too good to be true. It's substandard.
Public school teaching is often difficult for new teachers, but with a B. Ed. you must have other options.
I say pass on both and keep looking. |
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elric
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| What should I be looking for 2.3 million in a big city with University job? |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| 2.0 and single housing is standard hagwon wage. Personally, I'd take the 1.8 if everything else seems great though. My sanity is worth 200 bucks a month- isn't yours? |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| elric wrote: |
| What should I be looking for 2.3 million in a big city with University job? |
I never said to be unrealistic, but there are plenty of jobs out there that pay better and will give you your own apartment.
Do you like living with strangers in a small apartment? I don't.
The fact that you'd be working with your roommates also doubles the possibility of tension at work and home.
Here's the bare minimum of what you should be shooting for, if you're going to be teaching kids at a hogwon.
2 million per month
120 fifty minute classes per month (i.e. 6 classes/day)
free apartment, single housing
free roundtrip airfare or, better yet cash equivalent (you might not want to go home)
guaranteed start/finish time with no more that 8 hours between the two
2 weeks vacation, preferably with a guarantee of when those 2 weeks will be (otherwise they can dole out your vacation one Wednesday per month, and yes I have seen it happen)
health insurance
matching pension contributions (if you're North American, if you're not hopefully you can get around pension)
Monday through Friday workweek, no weekends
Overtime is optional, paid at 120% of your hourly rate
It's a teacher's market right now. IMHO you're settling for way too little.
Best of luck to you, whatever you decide. |
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sheba
Joined: 16 May 2005
Location: Here there and everywhere!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo summed it up pretty well. You have a BEd so you could be earning a little more than 2mil, but I certainly wouldnt settle for less! When you say 'in the middle of nowhere' what exactly do you mean? They consider a city of 100,000 a town over here so it may not be as small as you think??? I live in a small town (10,000 people?) and there are still about 10 hagwons and 3 schools here, and the nearest city is 15 mins by bus. No worries at all. |
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ubum
Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Location: Gwangju
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I live in Jeollanamdo, in the small city of Naju (100.000 people). It kind of sucks at time, but I usually go to Gwangju, which is a nice size city, (1.4 million) at least twice a week to satisfy my food cravings and my need to speak English at a normal speed. Its not that bad in the sticks. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ubum wrote: |
| I live in Jeollanamdo, in the small city of Naju (100.000 people) |
How do you manage in Naju? I have been there several times. I couldn't imagine spending more than one night there! Credit to you for sticking wit it though. |
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crazylemongirl
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| in another thread I wrote: |
If you are applying with EPIK there are a ton of posts on the programme, do a search on here and you'll come up with heaps of comments.
The big thing to remember on the public school versus hagwon debate is that there are good and bad hagwons just as good and bad public school gigs. I'm always wary of people who give blanket statements like 'hogwons are crap' and 'public schools are better' as their experience is unique to them.
Benefits to public schools
1. Less issues with pay. Most public school teachers don't complain about pay on daves.
2. Students. In general because you're seeing them when they are a bit more alert the kids tend to be better behaved.
3. Feeling more like a 'real teacher.' But this also means you are doing 'real teaching' If you're in a middle or high school your classes may be assessed on and you are doing the assessment on high stakes stuff.
4. Less teaching time.
5. Set hours. No split shifts.
Problems.
1. Class sizes. You'll be thrown into a classroom with 40 kids. Some people have co-teachers who may or may not speak english depending on where you teach.. If you haven't taught before this is a concern.
2. Stupid adminstrators. Co-teachers, vice principal, principal, district education admin people are all going to have an impact on your life. They don't play by western rules, and if you run afoul of any of these people they will make your life hell with dozens of low level things.
3. A lot of time sitting on your ass. Be prepared to spend a lot of time sitting on your butt doing nothing. Most public schools will require you to come in even if there are no classes, nor any other teachers there so that you can sit on your butt.
4. You will likely be the only foreigner in your school. Having expats around who know the 'lay of the land' is helpful in adjusting to life in korea. Also good to have someone to vent to about korea and teaching who understands where you're coming from.
5. Isolated locations. Some public school jobs are right out in the boonies. Be prepared to live in 'real korea.' Small town living carries with it a whole bunch of extra problems.
Vacation, apartment size, salary, class size, number of classes, adimn, testing, grading, extra cirrucular crap is all highly variable. A lot of it comes down to different schools, particularly the principal and your minder can make a difference in whether things are pleasurable or not. Unfourtantly being able to know how good your minder, principal and vice-principal are going to make your life hell or not is impossbile to tell without working there first.
Hagwons.
Benefits.
1. Small class sizes. Biggest class I taught was 20.
2. You generally get to teach a variety of ages.
3. More used to dealing with foreigners. A good hagwon will know what you need to get set up.
4. A chance to work with other foreigners. There are mixed reviews about this but if you are a social person this is important.
5. Less sitting on your ass time.
Problems.
1. Dodgy bosses. Bad apartments. pay problems, scheduling changes, and just generally nightmare stuff all comes back to the 'dodgy boss' problem.
2. Discpline. Because the kids are paying coustmers, the lunatics run the aslyum.
3. Hours. Split shifts are often to be found. These can make your day a lot longer.
4. Highly volatile market. Good hagwons can go bad. Bad ones can go out of business.
However there are ways to avoid the bad hagwons. Saxiif's Hagwon Search Guide gives some really good pointers.
My advice to people new to both teaching and korea really need to think hard about whether a public school job is for them. A lot of these gigs will have you being the only waygook, sometimes in isolated areas, with a staff that may or may not speak much english (not so bad in the middle and high school where there are korean english teachers). Also a crash course in classroom management with 12 kids who don't speak english is infinetly easier than when you have 40.
Also just as a general observation at the moment I think that hogwons in general are used to having to deal with foreigners, so being thrown into the day to day mine field of dealing with koreans. Obviously this will change over time, but a lot of westerners get frustrated dealing with adminstrators who have no idea how the west functons while they themselves have little idea of how korean adminstration functions.
Please try and look at yourself and your abilities as a teacher before you make this decision. If you're not confident that you'll be able to adapt quickly korea and teaching and like having a full social schedule then perhaps you'd be better to teaching in a large hagwon in seoul or a big city. If you're a bit more indepedent and want to experience the 'real korea' without a security blanket then perhaps a public school is for you. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| (100,000) Its not that bad in the sticks |
You and I have very very different perceptions of what qualifies as 'the sticks'. My whole myeon (township?) has 7,000 people. |
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poof
Joined: 23 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:43 am Post subject: |
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You are asking about the difference between a hagwon and a public school - it's worth pointing out that that these days, many public school jobs are offered by employers running an after school program which is essentially the same as a hagwon set up - certainly the 4 hrs part sounds like one of these after school prog set ups.
Maybe you are entering into one of these...be careful, as some of these afterschool set ups have found to carry certain problems. |
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