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[some waygug-in]

Hey Gopher, I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.


http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/05/08/pre05107.html


This is the just-released 2005 updated edition of a thorough and eye-opening documentary on the "School of the Americas," the infamous American army training center for Latin American military personnel who go on to torture and suppress dissent in their own nations. Graduates of the "School of the Americas" played key roles in the dirty wars and Central American torture and killing under the Reagan regime.

Some of the top current Bush Administration officials condoned the torture and murders of anyone suspected of being pro-democracy, liberal or guilty of being poor during the Reagan and Bush the First regimes.

In "quieter ways," many of the same barbaric methods continue in Latin America, but in a less intense fashion.

In many ways, the School of the Americas, located in Ft. Benning Georgia, was the birthplace of the "interrogation" techniques used in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and elsewhere, as well as the civilian massacres that occurred in Fallujah and other cities.

This is a very credible documentary because it is not filled with ideological invective. Indeed, military representatives of the School of Americas have their say, along with a host of credible critics.

One of the most moving passages in the film is the account of torture provided by a former nun who was subjected to the most savage of interrogations merely for having served the poor. An American was present as she was subjected to the most unspeakable series of tortures.

It is easy for Americans worried about Islamic terrorists to dismiss the protesters who yearly are arrested for challenging the bloody legacy of the School of Americas that continues to haunt our foreign policy today.

[Gopher]

First, this is very old news, to say the least.

This school is a bad idea and should have been closed down a long time ago. Latin American military institutions are monstrosities and we should not associate with them in any way. We are not buying influence with them. They are getting more out of this than we are.

On the other hand, your post fails to mention that nations like the United States, Great Britain, France, Germany, Israel, the Soviets (in their day) and others have always trained and "professionalized" the militaries around the world. Military aid overall makes them dependent on us for refresher training, techinical advice, they must come to us for spare parts, and all of us take advantage to try to spread around our ideology (with varying results) during this training. For us its "democracy." But Latin American military officers have little interest in democracy. They are not democratic and they are not going to be democratic in the future.

For a good intro to Latin American military institutions, see Thomas M. Davies and Brian Loveman, The Politics of Antipolitics; and Loveman, For La Patria.

If you're trying to use this training, and the military aid programs that go hand in hand with it, to make your case that the U.S. is causing torture to occur in Latin America, then that is absurd and ridiculous.

Latin America is a pretty brutal place, and military officers are fanatic for their "fatherland." We don't teach them to go fanatic about their fatherlands; you don't ever hear any U.S. or British military officers, for example, talking about the fatherland; this came from the Germans and the French in the ninteenth century. But have the United States nonetheless contributed to this? Yes. Perhaps disproportionately so after the Second World War. Is the United States causing this madness? I don't see the evidence as supporting that charge.

Take a good look at what's going on in Latin America before looking at U.S. aid programs and places like the School of the Americas. And Latin America, in Marine Corps terminology, is a clusterfuck.

That's the best answer I can give you in such a spontaneous forum. Thanks for the question.

By the way, perhaps the best look overall into the effects U.S. military aid programs have had in postWar Latin American affairs, see Lars Schultz's work. It's seminal in this field.

[some waygug-in]

I take it you didn't click on the link and read the part on page 2.


Recommendation, Cont'd | back to top

In true Bush style, the School of the Americas has dealt with this growing criticism of its role in training the most violent leaders in Central and South America by changing its name into something more euphemistic. In 2001, it was renamed the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC). Military officials will claim that the School of the Americas doesn't exist anymore, but it's still there, just with new signage.

This documentary runs more than two hours, but holds your attention throughout. You are either angry at the atrocities committed by people who received their training at the School of the Americas, or uplifted by the committed activism of advocates who protest the mission and tragic legacy of this military training academy for repression in Central and South America.

The School of the Americas is the Bush Latin American foreign policy in a nutshell: unrestrained military might that takes no prisoners and justifies torture, even of innocents, in the name of keeping the poor in their place south of our border.

Until we saw "Hidden in Plain Sight," we did not fully understand what a significant role the School of the Americas has played in the U.S. control of non-English speaking nations in our hemisphere. Now we do -- and it is a chilling story indeed.

[Summer Wine]

Quote:

In many ways, the School of the Americas, located in Ft. Benning Georgia, was the birthplace of the "interrogation" techniques used in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and elsewhere, as well as the civilian massacres that occurred in Fallujah and other cities.

It didn't start with the americans. It began ( possibly? ) with the nazi's who were helped by the US to move to south america to combat the communists post WW2. The latins in certain countries (stupid point really = latins = germans, french, spanish, russian etc) had these ideas due to the makeup of thier countries. Rapier heres an issue of colonization, ongoing for you.

Its an ongoing problem, which is why its maybe easier to consider it as a spirit or idea that has continued over the years for a long time. TORTURE WE ARE GUILTY OF ACQUIESCENCE IF NOT ABSOLVEMENT BY OUR SILENCE.

Oh, yes, I didn't know Well Now YOU Do

[Gopher]

deleted

[Nowhere Man]

Hmm....

The slack was taken up by Israelis?

Who funds the Israelis?

Has Israel ever sold military technology to China?

[some waygug-in]

Sorry for posting this at this time, I just noticed the thing on buzzflash and I was curious what your take would be.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

[Summer Wine]

Gopher - I just finished reading a book called a "lexicon of Terror - torture in Argentina". As you have spent time in South America, maybe we could discuss this issue further. No emotional outbursts, etc, just well thought out discussion. I am interested in discussing this problem and your thoughts on past actions in the region.

[Gopher]

[Gopher]

[jinglejangle]

[Summer Wine]

Fair well thought out points. Jingle Jangle.

Though is it always the consumerism of the masses or could it also be argued that it is the desires of the large corporations for cheap products that consistently calls on them to demand US support for those facist systems that benefit the large companies over the small consumers and producers. Cause and effect are not always so obvious as you pointed out.

Quote:

2nd. These people have money, and they WILL get military training one way or another. Better it come from us, where they will be fed American ideals with there classes and such, than that they be trained by Hezbollah or IRA vets down there who will definately promote terrorism against civilians as a prefered method.

It is these american ideals that I had the problem with, the ideals that were previously ended or maybe not of torture, political assasination, of illegal arrests. It is these ideals that I am disgruntled with, whether carried out 30 yrs ago or yesterday in a prison today.

You assume that these methods were a example before, and that the US can keep tabs on those. It is in fact that these training methods have been promoted as the means to prevent or reduce civil disobedience that I have the greatest disagreement with. That these methods are not the new ideas of today or of anyone particular group but are the continuation of ideas, training that has been ongoing. The lesser of two evils is not always the best solution, though it is the one we are indoctrinated to believe.

Quote:

than that they be trained by Hezbollah or IRA vets down there who will definately promote terrorism against civilians as a prefered method. And yes, both of those groups have been documented training local forces down south of Mexico. Why do you think terrorism and kidnapping are so popular in Colombia anyway?

They are popular because Grandchildren of those who were taught these methods are still learning that these are workable methods. They are not being offered an alternative, it assumes that every child is born and grows up with the penance for violence, rather than it being a learned attitude.

The school of America's is not the same as it was before, but it did continue the methodology of torture, assasination, political and military counter terrorism training from the Gestapo, SS etc, that should have been eradicated post ww2. At the end of the war, the US was the strongest nation in the world, economically, militarily. It could have captured every nazi, ss or gestapo member in the World rather than turning a blind eye and allowing their ideas to continue. It taught these as viable methods, rather than trying to spend money on training in morals and moral based counter measures.

If we acquisence to these idea that torture is a workable idea, and that so long as they are our torturers, this concept and assualt on basic freedoms and protection from violence will never end. There has to be standards even in a war and more so in a war against your own people. Counter terrorism is a precise science, it is not usually a mistake and it is this that I have a problem with.

To conclude, it is not just South America that uses these methods, these methods are taught in many countries. Our own countries are a prime example, though not as violent and more velvet gloved the procedures, its the notion that violence as a political tool needs to be ended, whether taught by an American school or not. It is just more demeaning to the american pysche that a country that on one hand offers freedom, trains others to reduce that freedom. That was the problem I have with it.

[Summer Wine]

Quote:

The army manual excerpts highlighted by the Pentagon advocate tactics such as executing guerrillas, blackmail, false imprisonment, physical abuse, use of truth serum to obtain information and payment of bounties for enemy dead. Counterintelligence agents are advised that one of their functions is "recommending targets for neutralization," a term which is defined in one manual as "detaining or discrediting" but which "was commonly used at the time as a euphemism for execution or destruction," according to a Pentagon official (Washington Post, September 21, 1996).

http://www.lawg.org/misc/publications-manuals.htm

Considering the reports from Iraq and the scandal about activities in Afghanistan and Iraq in the prisons. I wonder if they have ended these practices. Its the "advocate" phrase that I have most problem with. Why should these methods need to be trained to others, most of these methods are incompatible with human rights.

If as Mao is reported to say, Be like fish in the sea", then the best solution would be to reduce the ocean of discontent in which these fish can swim than to increase it by violent methods and subsequently affect the morality and mental standards of those expected to carry out these programs. If the above methods are used, they should be only for the extreme situations. Dragnetting the sea of discontent through the use of the above mentioned tactics, harms those who aren't the fish. Draining the sea through social, economic and political programs would still make it easier to identify the fish, without doing more harm to the sea.

1976 - 1983 Argentina = 450? Guerrilla's - 30,000 missing/dead.


They used the above mentioned methods but used dragnetting as the main way to protect thier system. Counter-terrorism is a viable concept, but methods should be less freedom destroying and more social educating. We all know the phrase "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" and "using a sledge hammer to crack a nut". These methods that were used and subsequent recent events would tend to imply that the methodology if not still being taught, has not taught any good lessons.

There have been few success stories in counter-terrorism that have not relied on changing the peoples attitudes with honey or imprisoning them with fear. We should be concerned with what the result of these methods will be, not just in South America but today in our own lives as our governments struggle with the problem of countering terrorism without infringing too much on our rights and freedoms. Lets not desensitise ourselves and accept methods that are in fact society destroying, nor should we accept others teaching these methods in our names.

Quote:

Perhaps the most persistent and nefarious aspect of the manuals is the lack of distinction between legitimate political and civic opposition and armed rebellion. The "Counterintelligence" manual, for example, defines as potential counterintelligence targets "local or national political party teams, or parties that have goals, beliefs or ideologies contrary or in opposition to the National Government," or "teams or hostile organizations whose objective is to create dissension or cause restlessness among the civilian population in the area of operations." (p. 228) This manual recommends that the army create a "black list" of "persons whose capture and detention are of foremost importance to the armed forces" (p. 225), which should include not only "enemy agents" but also "subversive persons," "political leaders known or suspected as hostile toward the Armed Forces or the political interests of the National Government," and "collaborators and sympathizers of the enemy," known or suspect.

[Gopher]

SummerWine: what is your understanding of what happens in war, particularly in ugly guerrilla actions like in Vietnam, Colombia, Guatemala, and El Salvador? on both sides?

[Summer Wine]

Over the last 20 years I have covered a large amount of reading on vietnam. I have a basic understanding of the conflicts in the Central - South American regions, though to understand these areas of conflict. It was not always a war against communism as sometimes more of a fight against the indiginous population especially so I have read in Guatemala and a coordinated land grab.

I understand the violent actions in some of these areas. Beheadings, rapes, tortures, etc. Disappearences. But I am always learning, wishing to learn and understand more and better and learn more about others ideas and knowledge.

So if you wish to educate me further or can direct my attention to books, web pages, that can further my information. Then I am willing to learn.

If this is just a "you don't understand the viciousness of the wars and fight fire with fire argument and you're stupid" then I am not so willing to accept that.