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Freezer Burn
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Location: Busan
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 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| jinglejangle wrote: |
How bout this question.
Can anyone name a country which has NEVER commited an act of terrorism?
(Whatever that is) |
New Zealand |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| hypnotist wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Nope cause 1) the South isn't out the get North Korea. They would love to end the war w/ North Korea.
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Are you claiming that SK's long-term aim isn't a united Korea governed by a democratically elected government based in Seoul?
Seriously? |
You are about 10=20 years behind the times on that. Not since No Tae Woo has Korea had any goverment that had any real interest in taking on North Korea
I think the South Korean govt and people would accept any democratic result in Korea. If a democratic korean govt. wanted the Captial to be PyongYang probably the south korean people would agree, not that the North Korean population would have the votes.
And I am not sure the present govt for Korea even wants the capital to be in Seoul. They are/were trying to move the captial to GongJu city.
There is no comparison between the govt of South Korea and the govt of North Korea.
South Korea no longer cares about conquering the North , I am not even sure if many South Koreans really want reunification, cause they don't want to pay they bill for it.
South Korea just wants to live in peace so they can drink Soju , win soccer games against Japan and the US and watch music videos by Korea singers.
South Korea might want to bust up Japan and beat the US economically but that is about all the war they have any interest in. |
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joe_doufu
Joined: 09 May 2005
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:20 am Post subject: |
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"Terrorism" is when you commit atrocious acts in order to induce fear and either cause or deter action. Nothing we did in WWII could be called terrorism... Japan and Germany both declared war on us, not the other way around.
The most famous case of US "terrorism" is probably Sherman's campaign during the Civil War. He and his soldiers roamed around the South, burning homes, raping the women (probably), and tearing up railroad tracks. The South had conscripted every man and boy by that point, and we wanted them to feel the pain of continuing the war, and make them realize they'd better surrender so they go and take care of what was left of their homes and families. The demoralizing effect was strong. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:22 am Post subject: |
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I wasn't asking what they would or wouldn't do to achieve their aim. I was asking whether you thought they had a different aim, whether they had given up on the idea of a united Korea.
I think the South Korean govt and people would accept any democratic result in Korea.
In other words, you agree that they want North Korea to stop existing in its current form. Don't you think the Norks should be slightly wary of dealing with anyone that has as their aim the ending of their country's existence?
(p.s. this isn't a question of whether South Korea is right or wrong to aim for this - merely that the long-term aim of the South IS the destruction, dismantling or dissolution of the North Korean state, and that the Norks may not like this very much.) |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| and that the Norks may not like this very much |
By 'Norks' you mean the despotic government of Kim Jong-Il and his cronies, not the North Korean people as a whole. I'm sure the hundreds of thousands languishing in prison camps, and ekeing out a pathetic existence in the countryside would hate to see their 'socialist paradise' collapse.
S.Korea may well want a democratic, united Korea, but they are prepared to do this by peaceful means. North Korea faces no real threat of military invasion from the South, so the original point, comparing the bombing of Dresden to the bombing of Seoul is nonsense. It equates a democratic, non-expansionist regime in Seoul, with the Nazis, who started a war in Europe that went on to kill millions. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:57 am Post subject: |
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If ever there was a great title for a POLL 
I'd imagine a few posters have already said this essentially, but ... DUH.
Wrapped in euphemistic language or justified on the grounds of this or that, the level & degree of hyprocrisy is blatantly sickening.
"Do as we SAY ... NOT as we do"  |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| and that the Norks may not like this very much |
By 'Norks' you mean the despotic government of Kim Jong-Il and his cronies, not the North Korean people as a whole. I'm sure the hundreds of thousands languishing in prison camps, and ekeing out a pathetic existence in the countryside would hate to see their 'socialist paradise' collapse. |
I was talking about the Government, though given the relentless stream of propaganda and lack of information about the outside world, I do wonder just how many North Korean people do go against the party line (certainly not many do and manage to stay out of said prison camps).
The reality is, few of us can possibly know exactly what the average North Korean citizen thinks.
| Quote: |
| S.Korea may well want a democratic, united Korea, but they are prepared to do this by peaceful means. North Korea faces no real threat of military invasion from the South, so the original point, comparing the bombing of Dresden to the bombing of Seoul is nonsense. It equates a democratic, non-expansionist regime in Seoul, with the Nazis, who started a war in Europe that went on to kill millions. |
Did the US face any real threat of military invasion by Germany? Really?
I take your point, but anyone who can say with a straight face that South Korea doesn't have as an aim the end of North Korea is mad. From the North Korean point of view, ending a war by defeating a country that it is at war with and which seeks its destruction IS a valid thing to do. They'd be incredibly stupid to even try, of course, but under the rules of war* I don't see why it's invalid as a strategy...
* Sun Tzu, not Geneva. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Did the US face any real threat of military invasion by Germany? Really? |
No, but Britain did, and Britain carried out major bombing raids on German cities, along with the Americans who were our allies. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| They'd be incredibly stupid to even try, of course, but under the rules of war* I don't see why it's invalid as a strategy... |
The problem is when people try to make comparisons between the Allied fight against Nazi tyranny, and the possible aggression of a totalitarian dictatorship against a democracy that has not, in the last 50 years attempted to invade it. In fact, South Korea's policy towards the North now appears to be one of utter appeasement. The South no longer 'seeks' N.Korea's destruction, as you put it. It may wish for it's destruction, but there is no evidence that it has made any moves to realise that goal. |
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chotaerang
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Location: In the gym
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:58 am Post subject: |
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[quote="hypnotist"]
| bigverne wrote: |
... anyone who can say with a straight face that South Korea doesn't have as an aim the end of North Korea is mad. |
Alright, I'm mad. By word and deed, Southy does everything possible to avoid the end of the North Korean dictatorship: The spineless pass on human rights, the unmonitored aid packages, and the refusal to use punitive tactics as N.Korea constructs a nuclear arsenal, demonstrate a clear policy of regime-maintenance. |
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isrich
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
I suppose you should class terrorism as deliberately targetting non combatant civilians to cause mass terror and demoralisation.
I'm sure dresden and Tokyo held a lot of unarmed civilians. Same goes for Hiroshima.
Technology appears to have enabled the U.S to significantly cut the number of civilian/collateral damage- I'd say iraq has been one of the cleaner conflicts in this regard. |
There is a problem with classing incidents in WW2 like Dresden, Tokyo, and even Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
These cities were active in the production of materials and supplies for the German and Japanese war efforts.
Therefore they were all legitamit targets for the Allies.
The civilians in these cities were part of that war effort. Sometimes even making a greater contribution than some soldiers in the field.
This sadly makes them a legitamit target |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
"The radio program is to begin on 1 April [1954] and the last part of it, at D-Day, a terror program, is based on Orson Welles and is most effective."
Unlisted Author, "Weekly PBSUCCESS Meeting with DD/P," 9 March 1954. CIA Job File No. 79-01025A, Box 154, Folder 1. |
I should have elaborated on this when I posted it.
Operation SHERWOOD was the psychological warfare component to PBSUCCESS, the CIA operation that deposed Arbenz in Guatemala in '54.
They mailed anonymous death notices to leading Guatemalan Communists, mourning their upcoming deaths. Meant to scare them into resigning from the govt.
The "terror program" referenced above including telling Guatemalans that someone had poisoned the waters of Lake Atitlan, and several other things, in order to induce mass panic a la Orson Welles's 1938 broadcast of War of the Worlds. They hoped that a large-scale panic would pressure the military to depose Arbenz and reestablish control...
CIA also waged a "scare campaign" (that's what they called it) in the 1970 Chilean elections. They told Chilean voters, among other things, that Soviet tanks and Cuban firing squads would occupy Santiago if Allende won, and they threatened that an Allende victory would mean an end to family life as Chileans knew it...
These strike me as two obvious examples of the U.S. govt waging terror/scare campaigns expressly directed at civilians in a peacetime country...if you want another example, I'd steer you towards the so-called Phoenix Program in Vietnam (something I could be better informed on), but that might be complicated as it was a war... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
In other words, you agree that they want North Korea to stop existing in its current form. Don't you think the Norks should be slightly wary of dealing with anyone that has as their aim the ending of their country's existence? |
OR nowaday I think perhaps SK would accept just being to keep what thye have.
But you miss the point the North Korean government doesn't represent North Korea is represents the will of Kim Jong Il.
Kim Jong Il is a war criminal and his government is illegitmate.
Wanting him gone is to be pro North Korean
| Quote: |
| (p.s. this isn't a question of whether South Korea is right or wrong to aim for this - merely that the long-term aim of the South IS the destruction, dismantling or dissolution of the North Korean state, and that the Norks may not like this very much.) |
Why should North Koreans be against this.
North Korea is just Kim Jong Ills play pen. He is illegitmate and his government along with his father has killed more Koreans than the Japanese did .
There is no reason for North Koreans to be against what South Koreans want.
If they knew the truth about South Korea they would want what SKoreans want.
North Korea's govt represents the wishes of Kim Jong Il not North Koreans.
In fact North Koreans who run away are killed. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Joo, how do you know what the North Korean public want? I mean, seriously? kJI may never have asked them, but neither have you.
If they knew the truth about South Korea they would want what SKoreans want.
Corruption? Inequality? English teachers making innocent young women take their clothes off?
Reading some posts in this place would be enough to scare them off wanting what SKoreans have for years... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Joo, how do you know what the North Korean public want? I mean, seriously? kJI may never have asked them, but neither have you. |
Who would want to live under one of the most horrible police states in the history of the world? Where the people are poor and ruled by a war criminal who rules with a cult of personality? Where those who run away are brought back and killed? Where there is terrible starvation.
Agreed but there are many worse in the world.
better than NK
All over the world there is plenty of inequality in NK , If you are a cripple get out of PyungYang.
| Quote: |
| English teachers making innocent young women take their clothes off? |
Foreign guys are not terrible popular in South Korea . Korean girls are just as likely to burn a foreign guy as the other way around.
| Quote: |
| Reading some posts in this place would be enough to scare them off wanting what SKoreans have for years... |
Not if they had a clear picture of the situation.South Korea isn't perfect but it is a paradise compared to North Korea.North Korea is a prison ruled by a war criminal. Better to live in corrupt , unequal South Korea than to live in prison.
| Quote: |
Witness reveals horror of North Korean gulag
Simon Tisdall
Friday July 19, 2002
Guardian
Tens of thousands of political prisoners face starvation, torture and summary execution in prison camps in North Korea, according to the testimony of a prisoner to a US Senate inquiry.
In a detailed, frequently harrowing first-hand description of conditions inside Kaechon camp and other detention centres run by North Korea's communist regime, Soon Ok Lee has told the inquiry of apparent biological and chemical weapons experiments on prisoners.
She said she had witnessed numerous other atrocities, including the murder of newborn babies by guards and doctors.
"While I was there, three women delivered babies on the cement floor without blankets," Ms Soon told a Senate judiciary sub-committee chaired by the Democrat Edward Kennedy. "It was horrible to watch the prison doctor kicking the pregnant women with his boots. When a baby was born, the doctor shouted, 'Kill it quickly. How can a criminal expect to have a baby? Kill it.'
"The women covered their faces with their hands and wept. Even though the deliveries were forced by injection, the babies were still alive when born. The prisoner-nurses, with trembling hands, squeezed the babies' necks to kill them," Ms Soon said.
Ms Soon, who was first arrested in 1984, said she was tortured in pre-trial interrogation before being sentenced to a 13-year jail term for crimes against the state.
She said she had managed to survive in the camp only because, with a background as an accountant, she had been given work keeping the camp's records. She was released in an amnesty in 1992 and escaped to South Korea in 1995.
Despite the time that has elapsed since the events she describes took place, international human rights organisations and independent Korean groups say executions, torture and other serious abuses continue in the camps.
One group, the non-governmental Citizens' Alliance for North Korean Human Rights, has published testimony from other camp survivors. In one such account, Yong Kim described the horrors of "No 14 political prison", where he was held until he escaped in 1998 and made his way to South Korea the following year.
The total number of prisoners held in the North Korean gulag is not known but one current estimate puts it at about 200,000, held in 12 or more centres. A source on the Democrat-controlled judiciary committee said the location of many camps had been identified and there were plans to publish satellite photographs of them.
Amnesty International's latest annual report says that North Korea continues to refuse access to independent observers, that executions for political offences are continuing, and that freedom of religion is severely restricted.
"Several thousand Christians were being held in labour camps where they reportedly faced torture, starvation and death," Amnesty said.
The UN human rights committee and the EU expressed serious concerns about human rights to Pyongyang last year.
Senator Sam Brownback, who sits on the judiciary sub-committee, said: "North Korea is today's 'killing field' where millions of people considered politically hostile or agitators - or just being innocent children - starve to death while those in power enjoy luxurious lifestyles."
Ms Soon told Congress that prison inmates were frequently tortured with electricity and water and were used as targets when guards practised martial arts skills.
There were also frequent public executions at Kaechon of "anti-party elements" and "reactionaries". It was not unusual for prisoners to be driven to suicide.
She said secret executions were also carried out using a small compression chamber. Prisoners were forced inside and then the temperature was adjusted to produce lethal extremes of heat or cold. Such executions happened "at midnight, without trial, and [they] bury the corpses in a nearby valley".
Ms Soon said that the estimated 6,000 prisoners in the jail when she was first incarcerated had nearly all died by the time of her release five years later.
"About 1,000 prisoners died each year and a fresh supply was obtained each year in order to meet the quotas."
North Korea is a closed society and there are no direct means of verifying Ms Soon's testimony. But a judiciary committee source in Washington said her account gave an accurate picture.
"It's all true. I don't think she was exaggerating at all," the source said. "What she said is confirmed by several other independent groups."
There is considerable concern in South Korea after a naval skirmish on June 29 that left more than a dozen people dead. South Korea's official policy is one of reunification with the North, and it regards all North Koreans as Korean citizens.
A spokesman for Human Rights Watch said the continuance of serious human rights abuses in North Korea was "not in doubt" and was a contributory factor, along with persistent famine conditions, to the growing North Korean refugee problem now affecting north-east China.
Dozens of asylum-seekers have tried to force their way into foreign embassies in China while unknown numbers have been forcibly repatriated to North Korea, where they face imprisonment or death.
Last year Amnesty International drew attention to the "humanitarian crisis" on the North Korean-Chinese border and called for the UN refugee agency to be allowed access to the area. But so far China has not complied. Current estimates put the number of displaced North Koreans in China at between 100,000 and 300,000. Meanwhile, the number of defections to South Korea is soaring, with last year's total twice that for 2000.
The findings of the Senate hearings, held on June 21, may have a significant influence on Washington's current attempt to decide whether to revive the policy of engagement with the regime which was pursued by Bill Clinton, or to further isolate a country President George Bush has called a "rogue state" and part of the "axis of evil". Staff on the Senate committee said the hearings had "helped put the spotlight" on North Korea's human rights problems.
"They have forced the administration to look more closely at the question of the refugees," one source said.
The growing crisis over North Korea is also likely to have an impact on US and European relations with China, North Korea's main ally. In a speech in Beijing this week, the British foreign secretary, Jack Straw, drew attention to concerns about North Korea's ballistic missile programme, but he made no specific mention of North Korea's abuse of its own people.
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2005 |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4464349-104490,00.html
and Hitler intended to eventually go after the US anyway - there were non aryans living there . That is why he was working on nuclear weapons and long range missles. |
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