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rapier

Joined: 16 Feb 2003

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:03 am Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

bucheon bum wrote:

rapier, your recent posts make me ponder: have you always been this nutty and finally have decided to be open about it now on Dave's OR have you just recently become a paranoid man obessed with the end of civilization in one way or another?

I totally called this one! Check it out, Rapier is a native of Zimbabwe but has been turned away by Mugabe's policies. All sympathies to him for that. But the man has definitely been influenced by this. He has displaced his natural nationalistic tendencies with environmental concerns. It's not the end of the world, Rapier, it's the end of you.

Now do I agree with all of the article? No. Do I think Global Warming is an invention of the demographically desperate? Not exactly. Do I think this article describes Rapier's psychology? Yes, fairly well in fact.

Well kuros i admit to being in part what life has made me..but that article is clearly written by someone who has no understanding or realisation of nature, reality, or the outside world. it is a human-based political view.
We are only one species in this world of interracting natural forces and various liforms that as yet we do not understand. Science cannot provide all the answers, and our technological age has wreaked unprecedented damage on our natural environment in the geographical twinkling of an eye. We are now virtually shut off completely from nature, have lost the wisdom and understanding traditional societies lived by for millenia: and our relationship to the earth is an arrogant one of exploitation and abuse. Its plain to see, and its a destruction foreseen hundreds of years before by visions and prophecies from cultures worldwide.
Without knowlege, without any appreciation of nature (as are 99% of homo sapiens nowadays)- you simply deny that the actions of people have any adverse consequences, and retreat to your comfort zone wilfully unaware of the real situation unfolding in our environment.

Today I donated funds to a conservation charity: I discussed with other concerned people the rapid destruction of Koreas natural environment and biodiversity at the hands of big money projects..and occasionally i chat with the old folks about such things as how the weather was indeed changed from 50 years ago: how whole areas once filled with birds or wild flowers are now lifeless concreted wastelands: and how people neither care nor are aware of the other living things that are/were around them. I'd say my reality, my bigger picture is a lot more informed than yours.

rapier

Joined: 16 Feb 2003

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:15 am Post subject:

desultude wrote:

The more I see of what is happening to the earth and how we are (not) responding, the more I think rapier is right.

I just received this article from my sister, it is from The Independent in the U.K. This should be so evident. That "toxic gumbo" in New Orleans, caused by chemicals, oil, and all of the wonderful pollutants we casually use on a daily basis- insecticides, pesticides, herbicides, etc, that are in the stores and garages and warehouses all over all of our cities and have now washed into the streets of New Orleans, is now being pumped back into Lake Ponchetrain and the Mississippi River. And what of the pictures of whole oil platforms washed up onto beaches? Where is the oil they had in/on them, and the pipelines running to and from them? What is currently happening to the Gulf of Mexico?

Thank you desultude. Unfortunately the onslaught against our natural world is now at full force:Measured in shrinking glaciers, extinctions, shrinking habitats, air and water pollution, ill-thought and disastrous developments in the name of greed. A destruction most people are sheltered and oblivious to- while we sit in our heated living rooms in front of televisions spewing meaningless popular culture.

I introduced prophecy here simply as one of many ways of bringing awareness of and understanding of the state we're in. Most people nowadays interpret life purely through a scientific/technological lens- where "economic/profit" is the only value that can give anything worth.

re: prophecies: lets just take a look at the news Today, shall we?? here are todays 5 top headlines:

Plan Envisions Using Nukes on Terrorists AP - 3 minutes ago
Scientists find growing land bulge in Oregon Reuters - Fri Sep 9, 7:04 PM ET
Katrina May Cost U.S. as Much as Two Wars AP - Sun Sep 11, 6:18 AM ET
Firms with Bush ties snag Katrina deals Reuters - Sat Sep 10,11:03 AM ET
Sun Unleashes 5 Major Flares, Earth May Soon Get Pounded

Now to me, all of that makes perfect sense in the perspective I have built up through years of conservation, environmental understanding, prophecy and entertaining other alternative viewpoints.

desultude

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:27 am Post subject:

Yeah, the immediate situation is not easy to resolve. The problem is they will patch things back together, the Lake will start to die, and the river will die more. Cancers will become more prevalent. But the old toxic habits will not be given up. The oil rigs will be rebuilt, the beautiful (chemically fertilized) lawns will be sprayed with toxins, and nothing will be learned. This is the real tragedy. I actually think it is hard to be overly concerned or alarmist about the environment. As ( I believe it was) George Carlin said, we humans are the problem, we are like syphilis to the planet, and perhaps the planet's immune system is rejecting us.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:30 am Post subject:

Rapier wrote:

Without knowlege, without any appreciation of nature (as are 99% of homo sapiens nowadays)- you simply deny that the actions of people have any adverse consequences, and retreat to your comfort zone wilfully unaware of the real situation unfolding in our environment.

Ummm...where did I ever say that? I think I made it pretty clear that I have not ruled out that the environment was actually in some trouble.

My only point is your admonitions towards violence in certain threads as well as your belief in certain biblical prophecies might be explained by being kicked out from your home country and thus not being able to realize your future through Zimbabwe's future. This was simply in response to BB's musings.

Rapier wrote:

I'd say my reality, my bigger picture is a lot more informed than yours.

These kind of statements teach me nothing.

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:46 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

Rapier wrote:

I thought Rapier was happy Zimbabwe stripped his family of all his ill gotten colonial gains and gave it back to the real citizens of Zimbabwe? He seemed to argue forcefully that all us North Americans should likewise hand back our property to the Indians and repatriate ourselves, all 300 million of us, to jam packed Europe...

Butterfly

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject:

gypsyfish wrote:

desultude wrote:

Quote:

Cover-up: toxic waters 'will make New Orleans unsafe for a decade'
By Geoffrey Lean, Environment Correspondent
Published: 11 September 2005

Toxic chemicals in the New Orleans flood waters will make the city unsafe for full human habitation for a decade, a US government official has told The Independent on Sunday. And, he added, the Bush administration is covering up the danger.

In an exclusive interview, Hugh Kaufman, an expert on toxic waste and responses to environmental disasters at the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), said the way the polluted water was being pumped out was increasing the danger to health.

The pollution was far worse than had been admitted, he said, because his agency was failing to take enough samples and was refusing to make public the results of those it had analysed. "Inept political hacks" running the clean-up will imperil the health of low-income migrant workers by getting them to do the work.

His intervention came as President Bush's approval ratings fell below 40 per cent for the first time. Yesterday, Britain's Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, turned the screw by criticising the US President's opposition to the Kyoto protocol on global warming. He compared New Orleans to island nations such as the Maldives, which are threatened by rising sea levels. Other US sources spelt out the extent of the danger from one of America's most polluted industrial areas, known locally as "Cancer Alley". The 66 chemical plants, refineries and petroleum storage depots churn out 600m lb of toxic waste each year. Other dangerous substances are in site storage tanks or at the port of New Orleans. No one knows how much pollution has escaped through damaged plants and leaking pipes into the "toxic gumbo" now drowning the city. Mr Kaufman says no one is trying to find out.

Few people are better qualified to judge the extent of the problem. Mr Kaufman, who has been with the EPA since it was founded 35 years ago, helped to set up its hazardous waste programme. After serving as chief investigator to the EPA's ombudsman, he is now senior policy analyst in its Office of Solid Wastes and Emergency Response. He said the clean-up needed to be "the most massive public works exercise ever done", adding: "It will take 10 years to get everything up and running and safe."

Mr Kaufman claimed the Bush administration was playing down the need for a clean-up: the EPA has not been included in the core White House group tackling the crisis. "Its budget has been cut and inept political hacks have been put in key positions," Mr Kaufman said. "All the money for emergency response has gone to buy guns and cowboys - which don't do anything when a hurricane hits. We were less prepared for this than we would have been on 10 September 2001."

He said the water being pumped out of the city was not being tested for pollution and would damage Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi river, and endanger people using it downstream.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article311818.ece

No argument that it's horrible, but what's the solution in this case?

We can't put the genie back in the bottle, the pollutants are there, letting them sit in the streets is no solution. Changing our ways about using pesticides, herbicides, and insecticides now, (yeah, like that'll happen) won't change the current situation.

I'm not criticizing your criticism, I agree that it's being handled poorly by political hacks who care about their jobs not about the victims, but short of cleaning it or loading up water buffalos and carting it away, I see no other way of dealing with it.

I don't think she was suggesting there was an alternative; I think she was just pointing out how ***ked the whole thing is.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:00 pm Post subject:

mindmetoo wrote:

Kuros wrote:

Rapier wrote:

I think for Rapier, the crucial difference between Africa and America was that in Rhodesia the natives increased in number, whereas in America, Native Americans were dramatically reduced in number. Rapier made no arguments against American slavery, and perhaps this too is because the African slaves brought there also increased in number (eventually).

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:18 am Post subject:

This thread is a perfect place to keep a running total of Rapier's prophecies: http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=44572 Okay, that puts him at 0 for 1.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:34 am Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

I think for Rapier, the crucial difference between Africa and America was that in Rhodesia the natives increased in number, whereas in America, Native Americans were dramatically reduced in number.

...but this fails to acknowledge the demographic data and the present day situations in Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, and Bolivia, no? When you talk about "America," "Native Americans," and "dramatic reductions," you are referring to Canada, the U.S., and especially the Caribbean, right?

Here's Bolivia as it looks today, according to State's statistics: "Bolivia's ethnic distribution is estimated to be 56%-70% indigenous people, and 30%-42% European and mixed. The largest of the approximately three-dozen indigenous groups are the Quechua (2.5 million), Aymara (2 million), Chiquitano (180,000), and Guarani (125,000). There are small German, former Yugoslav, Asian, Middle Eastern, and other minorities, many of whose members descend from families that have lived in Bolivia for several generations."

Here's Peru, from the same source: "Most Peruvians are either Spanish-speaking mestizos--a term that usually refers to a mixture of indigenous and European/Caucasian--or Amerindians, largely Quechua-speaking indigenous people. Peruvians of European descent make up about 15% of the population. There also are small numbers of persons of African, Japanese, and Chinese ancestry."

And here is Guatemala: "More than half of Guatemalans are descendants of indigenous Mayan peoples. Westernized Mayans and mestizos (mixed European and indigenous ancestry) are known as Ladinos."

I bring this up not for you, Kuros, as much as for Rapier, because I've never been satisfied that he grasps the situation in the western hemisphere, particularly with respect to his allegations that the Indians were wiped out...

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:38 am Post subject:

What about Mexico? Hasn't the PRI more or less institutionalized the 'coolness' (for lack of a better word at this moment) of being mestizo for the better part of a century? But of course Rapier doesn't really care about this. I know what his reply will be, as do you.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:49 am Post subject:

Bulsajo wrote:

What about Mexico?

Hasn't the PRI more or less instituionalized the 'coolness' of being mestizo for the better part of a century?

The revolution brought out and celebrated Mexico's Aztec past. Diego Rivera's murals are just one example of this. (Mayanists have been frustrated by this, hard to get permits to dig in Mexico, etc.)

But it's more like the Pentagon that loves to name its helicopters "Apache" to celebrate and romantacize these peoples, while most Americans remain somewhat contemptuous of them as they are today...and the last I heard, by the way, the PRI was in trouble.

In any case, here's Mexico: "Indian-Spanish (mestizo) 60%, Indian 30%, Caucasian 9%, other 1%."

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:00 pm Post subject:

Yes that's my understanding on all counts, including stats which show mestizos to be the majority of the population. Just thought Mexico should be included with the countries you listed. As elsewhere in the americas the elites have pretty 'white' bloodlines.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:09 pm Post subject:

Bulsajo wrote:

As elsewhere in the Americas the elites have pretty 'white' bloodlines.

That's why Bolivia has been so unstable historically. It's like an African colony: the vast majority are Indians and a very small minority are white European-descentants who don't intermarry with the natives, but rather create a political economy which dominates and exploits them.

It's an unstable, artificial thing that's bound to fall apart sooner or later. Whenever the Indians have organized, particularly in '52, and also just a couple of months ago, they have brought down the govt. I think that white Bolivians know this very well, and that this explains the separatist movement in and around Santa Cruz.

rapier

Joined: 16 Feb 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:14 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Bulsajo wrote:

As elsewhere in the Americas the elites have pretty 'white' bloodlines.

So why doesn't the politically correct international community break these racist regimes with international sanctions to ensure a member of the majority ethnicity becomes the president?
Or was that just a trendy thing that applied to Southern Africa?

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:34 pm Post subject:

rapier wrote:

That's a good comparative question.

Europeans cannot be dislodged from the Americas, but they can be dislodged from Africa.

Why do you think this is so? How are the two situations different? (hint: look at Catholicism, and look at mestizos and patterns of miscegenation...and ask yourself who should go where?)

This regional pattern notwithstanding, Bolivia is in a pretty bad spot, full of contradictions. To a much lesser extent, so is Peru. Neither of them underwent the revolution that Mexico did in 1910, and this revolution brought the country together, more or less.

Sendero Luminoso nearly toppled the Peruvian govt in the 1980s and esp. in the early 1990s by exploiting this issue, and exploiting it very, very skillfully. You could say it's their underbelly.

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