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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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 Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: What is the sound of *beep* hitting the fan in Iraq? |
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| It's a civil war now. The news coming from Iraq is just horrific. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I suppose it's pretty damned close to being 'officially' a civil war now, but the writing was on the wall even before the US invaded.
Even if the US had tried to do everything possible to avoid such a situation it would have been hard to.
Sad but not surprising.
But does Zarqawi speak for all Iraqi Sunnis? Beats me, these days he just might. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Shias are 60 % of the country.
Why would the insurgents if they were just fighting for liberation declare war on 60% of the country? Actually 80% since they hunt the Kurds too.
The answer is the insurgents have always been fighting to conquer Iraq , they want the US out so they can rule the whole nation.
Notice they have never just asked for independence.
Anyway If the insurgents weren't fighting the Shias and Kurds now they would be oppressing and killing them perhaps along with helping Saddam take another shot at Kuwait.
Anyway I would bet that the Kurds and the Shias would rather face the insurgents than live under the rule of Saddam Hussein.
and if anyone forgets Saddam Hussein never intended just to rule Iraq.
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Well Joo,
At some point you have to wonder whether this invasion of Iraq and ousting of Saddam is worth it. Some people have decided no long ago. Some people are starting to discover just how high the price for getting rid of is going to be. Some people will- regardless of events- never admit that this move was a mistake.
You've made it clear that you consider it to be worth just about any price to have Saddam removed, is that a fair statement?
Do you forsee- assuming that things continue to get worse for both the US in Iraq as well as the Iraqis themselves- a time in the future where even you might have second thoughts as to whether or not it was worth it? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| You've made it clear that you consider it to be worth just about any price to have Saddam removed, is that a fair statement? |
no not at any cost. and I dont' think I have said such.
I think what I have said is that anyone who opposes the war on humantiarian grounds is either disingenous or ignorant.
I also said that after 9-11 the current status quo in the mideast - the strategic situation - could no longer be tolerated.
The Bathists , Khomeni followers , Bin Laden lovers and the similar ideological types have to be forced to give up their war - all of it . And if they don't want to give up their war the US ought to hit them with whatever weapons it takes to force them to do so.
Iraq was't a good option but there weren't any options that weren't bad either |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You've made it clear that you consider it to be worth just about any price to have Saddam removed, is that a fair statement? |
no not at any cost. and I dont' think I have said such.
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Okay, thanks for the clarification. You're right, "at any cost" was not a fair statement.
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| I think what I have said is that anyone who opposes the war on humantiarian grounds is either disingenous or ignorant. |
Okay, I wouldn't be quite that harsh but can see that to a certain extent.
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| I also said that after 9-11 the current status quo in the mideast - the strategic situation - could no longer be tolerated. |
While I agree with you on this statement (particularly if you had said South Asia as well as the Middle East) I think this is where we part ways. It's a question of what to do to change the strategic situation, and I think invading Iraq was done for the wrong reasons and at the wrong time and in the wrong manner. But I know your side and you know mine and there's no point in hashing through it again.
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| The Bathists , Khomeni followers , Bin Laden lovers and the similar ideological types have to be forced to give up their war - all of it . And if they don't want to give up their war the US ought to hit them with whatever weapons it takes to force them to do so. |
Yeah but it seems all this has done has put down the Ba'thists and Mr. Uber-Bath'ist Saddam at the the price of strengthening the Shia 'Khomeni followers' and bin Laden lover terrorists.
I'd even go as far as to say that to this extent the invasion of Iraq backfired- it created the opposite effect to what was intended.
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| Iraq was't a good option but there weren't any options that weren't bad either |
Well, this much is certainly true. There were no good options, there remain no good options. And as much as I hate Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld it is possibly that a different team leading might not have fared any better.
The flip side is that it would also be hard to imagine them doing any worse... |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| The Bathists , Khomeni followers , Bin Laden lovers |
That little bit right there is all you need ever read from Joo Rip to get the gist of his message.
As for the topic itself, I suppose Iraq always has been sliding toward a slow burn... who was it sliced and diced the Middle East?
Rhetorical question. |
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BigBlackEquus
Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Location: Lotte controls Asia with bad chocolate!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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Well, guys. I have been listening to the quagmire rhetoric for a few years now, and it seems that Iraq is strengthening itself. More government troops seem to be conducting their own operations. The government there seems to make many of its own decisions. They are blocking off borders. Heck, they informed the US that they will not be staying a whole lot longer. The message: we will take care of our own as soon as we can.
I think anyone would expect a civil war, of sorts, but it\'s like 80% vs. 20% of the population. The Sunnis are never going to amount to anything more than what they are: a terrorist force that is hated by everyone else. Especially once the US leaves.
I believe that some day, the naysayers will have to stop preaching doom and accept the fact that Iraq is rebuilding and will eventually grow stronger and become a main force in the region.
Iraq will govern itself, and will take care of the terrorists in its own way. Sure, it has been a little rough going, but when you\'ve got the world\'s bush-hating media making every tin-can explosion sounding like the end of the new Iraqi government, it seems worse than it is.
The insurgents are losing. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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thanks george bush. I was worried there for a sec.
The insurgents are losing? Eh yeah. They won't be losing anytime soon because no one- Iraqis nor Americans- has the balls to wipe them out.
No, I'm not calling the american military cowardly. Just don't think the US gov't has the will nor the ability to effectively defeat an insurgency. Just look at our history. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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...........
Last edited by Butterfly on Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| The Bathists , Khomeni followers , Bin Laden lovers |
That little bit right there is all you need ever read from Joo Rip to get the gist of his message.
As for the topic itself, I suppose Iraq always has been sliding toward a slow burn... who was it sliced and diced the Middle East?
Rhetorical question. |
They don't have a right to their war. They have been at the US for a while but only after 9-11 did the US realize the extent of the problem.
As I said they have been at the US for a long time.
Al-Qaida finds safe haven in Iran
But former leaders reportedly under house arrest
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8330976/
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Let's make a deal
As a former senior U.S. counterterrorism official told NBC News: ��The U.S. government believed that the Saudis made a deal with the Iranians in 1996 after the Khobar Towers bombing. The deal was structured this way: The Saudis would not cooperate with the U.S. on the investigation, knowing that if they did cooperate, the U.S. would have the justification for bombing Iran.��
In return, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, the Iranians agreed not to support any terrorist attacks in the kingdom. (Ultimately, the United States charged Saudi Hezbollah members with the Khobar Towers attack and named as unindicted co-conspirators two officers of Iran��s Ministry of Intelligence.)
��Then, in 2003, we are told, the Saudis — with U.S. and British help — discovered that al-Qaida's management council in Iran was communicating with the al-Qaida cell in Saudi that had carried out the attacks on Western compounds in Riyadh," the official said. |
Maybe you think they have a right to their war and the US has no business hitting back. Well sorry. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You've made it clear that you consider it to be worth just about any price to have Saddam removed, is that a fair statement? |
no not at any cost. and I dont' think I have said such.
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Okay, thanks for the clarification. You're right, "at any cost" was not a fair statement.
| Quote: |
| I think what I have said is that anyone who opposes the war on humantiarian grounds is either disingenous or ignorant. |
Okay, I wouldn't be quite that harsh but can see that to a certain extent.
| Quote: |
| I also said that after 9-11 the current status quo in the mideast - the strategic situation - could no longer be tolerated. |
While I agree with you on this statement (particularly if you had said South Asia as well as the Middle East) I think this is where we part ways. It's a question of what to do to change the strategic situation, and I think invading Iraq was done for the wrong reasons and at the wrong time and in the wrong manner. But I know your side and you know mine and there's no point in hashing through it again.
| Quote: |
| The Bathists , Khomeni followers , Bin Laden lovers and the similar ideological types have to be forced to give up their war - all of it . And if they don't want to give up their war the US ought to hit them with whatever weapons it takes to force them to do so. |
Yeah but it seems all this has done has put down the Ba'thists and Mr. Uber-Bath'ist Saddam at the the price of strengthening the Shia 'Khomeni followers' and bin Laden lover terrorists.
I'd even go as far as to say that to this extent the invasion of Iraq backfired- it created the opposite effect to what was intended.
| Quote: |
| Iraq was't a good option but there weren't any options that weren't bad either |
Well, this much is certainly true. There were no good options, there remain no good options. And as much as I hate Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld it is possibly that a different team leading might not have fared any better.
The flip side is that it would also be hard to imagine them doing any worse... |
Bulsajo, I think you see Iraq as Vietnam , but I would say it is more akin to Guadalcanal. Iraq is not the end all of this war. Iraq is just part of longer term much bigger war to force the mideast extremists to quit their war. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLTrainer wrote: |
| As for the topic itself, I suppose Iraq always has been sliding toward a slow burn... who was it sliced and diced the Middle East? |
And who was it before that who kept the ailing Ottoman Empire (the sick man of Europe) from collapsing as long as possible? WWI changed all that, when the Ottomans decided to fight with the British who didn't want them to fall. Afterwards, the British and French partitioned the place...
Fast forward to an independent and free Iraq in the 1970s. It's the envy of the Middle East, the best economy there. And then Saddam takes power. Yes, there was a period of oppression and subjugation in the 1920s by Britain, but Iraq's recent successes and failures need to be attributed to some extent on how Iraqis actually perform. Otherwise, its just leftist condescension by means of 'they are just victims who have no control over their fate...' |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Anyway, bombings went up before the elections for the Constitutional Congress, and now bombings are going up before the Oct. 15 referendum on the Constitution. In addition, the American military says this is partly in response to the sacking of the Al Qaeda base in Tal Afar.
Yahoo
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Speaking before al-Qaida's claim of responsibility, a senior American military official forecast the claim, telling The Associated Press he believed the rash of bombings was in retaliation for Tal Afar.
The officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation, said the Tal Afar sweep had damaged the insurgency, which he said was made up of about 20 percent foreign fighters.
"Al-Qaida in Iraq lost basically a base area and transit point coming across the Syrian border. That will severely inhibit their operations at least in the short term," the officer said. |
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