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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:05 am Post subject: ... |
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| I wonder if the Nowhereman is going to toss some evidence into the ring in order to substantiate the position he was taking. |
To preface, bear in mind that this article ran in news sources across the world.
The blame rests on those who refuse to believe that she was injured by a cluster bomb.
If you, in our case, you have some way to prove your case, you could embarass this organization and international news agencies for libel.
I did research cluster bombs, and I found nothing to confirm Gord's notion that, by force of opinion, cover is irrelevant in the case of a cluster bomb attack.
If you do have some point to prove, then do bring it forth.
Otherwise, I'm not really sure why you resurrected this thread. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Can anyone tell us about the sources where this story ran? |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| To preface, bear in mind that this article ran in news sources across the world. |
Great. Let's have a look at a source which isn't speculative and proves she was hit by a clusterbomb.
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| The blame rests on those who refuse to believe that she was injured by a cluster bomb. |
The blame rests on your team for failing to produce any evidence despite a plethora of requests to do so. Still, you have failed to offer up anything other than speculation by a group which makes a lot of other very dubious claims.
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| If you, in our case, you have some way to prove your case, you could embarass this organization and international news agencies for libel. |
I don't understand this.
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| I did research cluster bombs, and I found nothing to confirm Gord's notion that, by force of opinion, cover is irrelevant in the case of a cluster bomb attack. |
What research?
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| If you do have some point to prove, then do bring it forth. |
Is this Disney land? You made the claims, and then you expect our team to disprove them? Would it be a good time to point out that that's not how things work?
| Quote: |
| Otherwise, I'm not really sure why you resurrected this thread. |
I wondered whether you had found some evidence supporting your claims. The last time this thread was buzzing with activity, your just left quietly via the backdoor. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I wonder if the Nowhereman is going to toss some evidence into the ring in order to substantiate the position he was taking. |
To preface, bear in mind that this article ran in news sources across the world.
The blame rests on those who refuse to believe that she was injured by a cluster bomb.
If you, in our case, you have some way to prove your case, you could embarass this organization and international news agencies for libel.
I did research cluster bombs, and I found nothing to confirm Gord's notion that, by force of opinion, cover is irrelevant in the case of a cluster bomb attack.
If you do have some point to prove, then do bring it forth.
Otherwise, I'm not really sure why you resurrected this thread. |
I don't understand. Are you actually advocating that your opponents prove your assertion for you? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:33 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
Nowhere Man wrote:
To preface, bear in mind that this article ran in news sources across the world.
Great. Let's have a look at a source which isn't speculative and proves she was hit by a clusterbomb. |
To date, the evidence is based on the article, which was run by news agencies across the world.
If that article is incorrect, then this discussion could end very simply.
Meanwhile, it's rather problematic to prove or disprove whether it's factually accurate. On one hand, Gord points out coalition denials of the use of cluster munitions on "civilian targets". My argument is that is that civilians were not the target, but that strategic cluster-bomb targets were in areas heavily populated with civilians. On the other hand, we have Belgian doctors on the ground saying she was injured by a cluster bomb.
How might we prove this one way or another? Ask the military if they cluster-bombed this girl's neighborhood? Unlikely.
In my opinion, this is a push.
If "my team" or your "ilk" (your words) had something to confirm or deny what happened flat-out, then this would be over.
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Quote:
The blame rests on those who refuse to believe that she was injured by a cluster bomb.
The blame rests on your team for failing to produce any evidence despite a plethora of requests to do so. Still, you have failed to offer up anything other than speculation by a group which makes a lot of other very dubious claims. |
Actually, I'll renounce my statement about blame. Either side could definitively end this debate.
However, the substance of my arguments on this thread did/do not deal with the article and it's report.
What got me involved were ensuing statements that this girl was being exploited and assessment of her injuries/situation as not cluster-bomb-related.
I brought up issues of cover.
The counterargument offered up by Gord was that everyone dies in the "kill-zone" of a cluster bomb.
You, of course, presented the ITVS bombies article and its statements about cluster bomb damage. Fair enough.
There is the statement in there that cluster bombs can pierce 7 inches of armor. I do wonder if that's any cluster bomb or the armor-piercing ones, but whatever. I would tend to believe that describes the latter.
At this point, Gord was stating that the girl had no cover per an article he posted. I read through the articles on the thread and failed to find it. I asked repeatedly to be shown this article, but was answered with nothing but threats to "bring out the crayons".
That was the end of the discussion.
Since then, I have read through some of the links at the end of your bombies article and did some searches.
I found the following:
http://www.stopclustermunitions.org/info.asp?c=43&id=18
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Tiny Hajir is being hailed by doctors and health workers as the miracle baby of the Iraq war. Her mother, 32 year-old Suad Abbas Hassun, was nearly nine months pregnant when steel fragments from an American cluster bomb tore at her womb and destroyed her right leg, leading to amputation and an emergency caesarian section. Though the lives of she and her baby were saved by surgeons at Hilla Hospital, they remain in fragile condition. Having only recently emerged from a coma, Suad is unaware that the attack also killed her 10 year-old son, her 38 year-old brother, and her 8 year-old niece. Her 3 nephews aged 12, 16, and 17 are seriously wounded. Baby Hajir is under the care of her 68 year-old grandmother, who must also look after the cows on the family farm.
Ahmad, 15 and Inas 17, lost their mother when a cluster bomb struck their home, leaving their eleven year-old brother Hasin blind, and Karwar, their 18 year old brother and breadwinner, handicapped forever. The conditions in the hospitals during the war caused the children to suffer permanent burn damage, with a high risk of developing skin cancer. CIVIC is working to get them long-term medical care and plastic surgery. Ahmad doesn''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''t play with his friends anymore, embarrassed by his wounds, and Inas''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''s dream of having a husband and family in the future is a far off dream.
In an interview with the L.A. Weekly, journalist Evan Wright, author of ��Generation Kill��, made the following observation of the cluster munition use he witnessed while ��embedded�� on a U.S. Marine Humvee:
"The indiscriminate bombing I saw was a bomb here and there from a lone F16. Everyone thinks of indiscriminate bombing as from airplanes. It��s the (��) artillery. The Marines in particular were using so much artillery that I have no idea what kind of killing we did. I tried to do little estimates with Nasiriyah. We were dropping these DPICM��s [dual-purpose improved conventional munitions] with cluster munitions. One round has between 60 and 90 rounds, and 15 percent of those don��t blow up until a kid picks it up later on and steps on it or plays with it because they��re brightly colored. I went back and I interviewed the artillery units and asked them how many rounds they fired on the city? It turns out we dropped 10,000 of those on one little city. It��s appalling." |
Points I'd make:
-The idea that "everyone dies in the kill zone of a cluster bomb" is put to rest
-A lot of cluster munitions were delivered via artillery, not cruise missiles, as I suspect was the point Gord was trying to argue. Footprint arguments as such would make more sense, but still do not discount issues of cover
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1203/4.5.htm#_Toc57442260
-clear evidence that the US used cluster-bombs on areas with a heavy civilian presence
-To be fair, the suggestion that artillery-base cluster-bombing reduced civilian casualties
-more evidence that people who get cluster-bombed do not automatically die:
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| When the Air Force did not avoid populated areas, cluster bomb strikes caused civilian casualties. The Baghdad date grove was located immediately across the street, on at least two sides, from Hay Tunis, a densely populated, residential neighborhood. Nihad Salim Muhammad was washing his car when the bombs hit. During the strike, the bomblets injured several people on his street, including four children.134 Around midnight on April 24, the U.S. Air Force dropped at least one CBU-103 on al-Hadaf girls�� primary school in al-Hilla.135 The strike killed school guard Hussam Hussain, 65, and neighbor Hamid Hamza, 45, and injured thirteen others, according to Hamid Mahdi, a 30-year-old butcher who lived across the street.136 The manager of the school said there were dozens of paramilitary troops in the neighborhood at the time of the strike.137 While the Air Force minimized civilian harm by dropping the bombs at night, the incident shows the dangers of dropping clusters in populated areas. |
-A picture of a girl in fron of school hit by a cluster bomb. It shows the damage and, I believe, illustrates the significant role of cover, as the walls depicted were not penetrated.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1203/6.htm#_Toc57442283
-More evidence of bomblet damage and a picture of a victim
Note: At one point, Gord argues that a single bomblet wouldn't have "enough mass" to have hurt this girl in the way proposed. I believe that conflicts with what is being stated here.
Of course, these are leftist sources, open to your criticism.
The only thing close to purely objective I could find was this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x.htm
-Offering again pictures of cluster-bomb damage to "Iraqi construction" (Gord fleetingly mentioned this) that suggests cover is a significant factor
-I lost the original source, but this article among others sites the use of 10,800 some uses of cluster-bomb munitions. The lost source explains that this places the bomblet count (used on Baghdad, a heavily populated area if there is one in Iraq) in the millions. I will go try to find the source if you doubt it.
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Quote:
If you, in our case, you have some way to prove your case, you could embarass this organization and international news agencies for libel.
I don't understand this. |
If you, in the case we are discussing, have proof that these Belgian doctors lied about this girl being hit by cluster munitions, you could embarass this organization and the news agencies that ran this article.
Do you?
I left this discussion waiting to be directed to a statement that this girl had no cover.
Said statement was coming from someone who, at one moment was saying a cluster-bomb was possible but unlikely, then at the next was unequivocally stating she was being exploited.
We played a "word game" with exploit.
At the same time, we have terminal statements about the lethality of cluster-bombs, then dismissive statements about the mass of a bomblet.
Now, you resurrected the topic.
Why?
Did you find something new? Or were you just bored? |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:11 am Post subject: |
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This is the thread that never ends
It just goes on and on my friends...
Some people started posting on it not knowing what it was...
And they'll keep on posting on it forever just because...
This is the thread that never ends.... |
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