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British undercover in Iraq - going sour
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rok_the-boat

Joined: 24 Jan 2004

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject: British undercover in Iraq - going sour

What the fcuk is going on here?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/09/19/iraq.main/index.html

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A British armored vehicle escorted by a tank crashed into a detention center Monday in Basra and rescued two undercover troops held by police, an Iraqi Interior Ministry official told CNN.

British Defense Ministry Secretary John Reid confirmed two British military personnel were "released," but he gave no details on how they were freed.

In a statement released in London, Reid did not say why the two had been taken into custody. But the Iraqi official, who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity, said their arrests stemmed from an incident earlier in the day.

The official said two unknown gunmen in full Arabic dress began firing on civilians in central Basra, wounding several, including a traffic police officer. There were no fatalities, the official said.

The two gunmen fled the scene but were captured and taken in for questioning, admitting they were British marines carrying out a "special security task," the official said.

British troops launched the rescue about three hours after Iraqi authorities informed British commanders the men were being held at the police department's major crime unit, the official said.

Iraqi police said members of Iraq's Mehdi Army militia engaged the British forces around the facility, burning one personnel carrier and an armored vehicle.

Video showed dozens of Iraqis surrounding British armored vehicles and tossing gasoline bombs, rocks and other debris at them.

With one vehicle engulfed in flames, a soldier opened the hatch and bailed out as rocks were thrown at him. Another photograph showed a British soldier on fire on top of a tank.

etc.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject:

Yeah, that's some pretty wacky stuff.

According to MSNBC:

Quote:

Aquil Jabbar, an Iraqi television cameraman who lives across the street from the Basra jail, said about 150 Iraqi prisoners fled as British commandos stormed inside and rescued their comrades.

So, the only way the British can get the Iraqi government(their supposed ally) to release British prisoners from jail is by destroying the jail and letting 150 other prisoners run free?

rok_the-boat

Joined: 24 Jan 2004

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject:

On the BBC site they referred to it as, wait for it, a 'negotiated' release

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:58 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The official said two unknown gunmen in full Arabic dress began firing on civilians in central Basra, wounding several, including a traffic police officer. There were no fatalities, the official said.

The two gunmen fled the scene but were captured and taken in for questioning, admitting they were British marines carrying out a "special security task," the official said.

Jesus, who's running "special security" for the British army? igotthisguitar?

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:51 pm Post subject:

truth is stranger than fiction.

supernick

Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:58 pm Post subject:

Wouldn't this be a breach of international law? From the arcticle, it said that two British military personel were not wearing uniforms and fired guns a civilians. I guess some would say that the British and Americans only breach international law some of the time, but the insurgents are in breach all the time. Anyway, I would sure like to read more about these latest events. It sure looks like things won't improve any time soon.

rok_the-boat

Joined: 24 Jan 2004

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:04 am Post subject:

supernick wrote:

Wouldn't this be a breach of international law? From the arcticle, it said that two British military personel were not wearing uniforms and fired guns a civilians.

Shooting people is against any law. Not being in uniform in a combat zone is basically being a spy, and spies can be shot, but under who's law? The terrorists do not have a state and have no authority under law. But they do have power, and those with power can and do do anything they like. At best, they would fall under Iraqi police authority, who presently, in real terms, fall under the occuaption forces.

Anyway, looks like the BBC has just changed its story - now they were not freed from police custody but from 'militia'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4262336.stm

Quote:

UK soldiers 'freed from militia'
Two British soldiers whose imprisonment prompted UK troops to storm a Basra police station were later rescued from militia, the Ministry of Defence says.
Brigadier John Lorimer said it was of "deep concern" the men detained by police ended up held by Shia militia.

Basra governor Mohammed al-Waili said the men - possibly working undercover - were arrested for allegedly shooting dead a policeman and wounding another.

The arrests sparked unrest in which Army vehicles were attacked.

In a statement, Brig Lorimer said that under Iraqi law the soldiers should have been handed over to coalition authorities, but this failed to happen despite repeated requests.

"I had good reason to believe that the lives of the soldiers were at risk and troops were sent to the area of Basra near the police station to help ensure their safety by providing a cordon," Brig Lorimer said.

"As shown on television these troops were attacked with firebombs and rockets by a violent and determined crowd.

"Later in the day, however, I became more concerned about the safety of the two soldiers after we received information that they had been handed over to militia elements."

After troops broke into the police station to confirm the men were not there, they staged a rescue from a house in Basra, said the commanding officer of 12 Mechanised Brigade in Basra.

"I'm delighted that the two British soldiers are back with British forces and are in good health," Brig Lorimer said.

But he added: "It is of deep concern that British soldiers held by the police should then end up being held by the militia. This is unacceptable."

BBC Defence Correspondent Paul Wood said local police revealed the whereabouts of the two men after the station was stormed.

"At the point of a 30mm cannon - no shots were fired - but at the point of this cannon, the Iraqi police gave away the location of where the two British soldiers had been taken," he said.

rok_the-boat

Joined: 24 Jan 2004

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:04 am Post subject:

I think this event looked rather suspicious in the beginning due to dodgy reporting. All in all, I now think it looks good for the British soldiers - they rescued their boys who the Iraqi police had handed over to the militia. However, one wonders what they were doing to get arrested in the first place ... But even if guilty of some crime, they should not have been handed over to the militia. Last edited by rok_the-boat on Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

Summer Wine

Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:40 am Post subject:

Quote:

I guess some would say that the British and Americans only breach international law some of the time, but the insurgents are in breach all the time.

Ok. First! I will make a statement. Should they have done so, yes they should have.

They were after Shiite terrorists, it was obvious by the wording. They got caught doing it and they might have died. The British commander stepped in and this is this result, Prove me wrong, I am waiting and will accept it.

Yours truly,

The Lost

supernick

Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:45 am Post subject:

Quote:

I think the Brithish have every right to recover their men if they were handed over to a non-government body, and I too will agree with you. However, if the British soldiers were involved in a shooting, and were not wearing uniforms, would that be in breach of international law? This might just be another great move that might just backfire on the coalition forces. Who really knows?

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:58 am Post subject:

Let's bear in mind this occurred in Basra, where a journalist investigating police corruption was murdered this summer.
And now:

Quote:

Second journalist probing Basra police killed
By Simon Freeman, Times Online

An Iraqi journalist investigating the infiltration of Basra's police force by extremists from the Shia militia was abducted and killed by masked men who identified themselves as police.

Fakher Haider, a 38-year-old Shia Muslim reporter covering Basra for The New York Times, was found dead with his hands bound and a bag over his head in a deserted area on the city�s outskirts yesterday morning.

On Sunday, Haider filed reports about the angry demonstrations that followed the arrest by British forces of two high-ranking members of the Mahdi Army, the militia loyal to the hardline Shia cleric Moktada al-Sadr.

Shortly after midnight, two cars - one unmarked, the other a police car - were driven up to his apartment building. Three men, carrying AK-47 assault rifles, ransacked the flat removing mobile phones and videotapes.

Haider, a father with three children aged 5, 7and 9, told his wife not to worry as he was led outside and bundled into one of the waiting vehicles.

Hours later, she was called to identify his body at the city morgue. He appeared to have been shot more than once in the head. His back was bruised, suggesting he had been beaten.

In recent months, Haider had confided to friends that he was worried about the increasingly violent atmosphere in Basra. In July, gunmen in a pick-up truck chased his car and fired at him - he escaped after driving off-road and firing his pistol into the air, he told a friend.

Many of Haider's most recent photographs, showing British military vehicles targeted in Basra, had been published on the ironically-titled They Love Us Really website which highlights the difficult relationship between locals and the coalition forces.

Among the images is a chilling picture of US consulate workers loading the body of Steven Vincent, a freelance journalist attached to the New York Times who was executed in Basra last month, into the back of an ambulance.

Vincent, too, had been inquiring into the extent to which the police force in Basra had become a tool of Shia extremists. Their deaths have taken on an enhanced political significance with the breakdown of relations between the local police force and British troops based in the city following yesterday's prison ram-raid.

British military officials, however, have stated that they believe Islamist militants, and not Iraqi police, are to blame for his death.

According to Paris-based Reporters Without Borders, he is the 68th journalist killed in Iraq since the start of the war in March 2003 and the 19th this year.

Bill Keller, executive editor of the New York Times, said: "This murder of a respected colleague leaves us angry and horrified. Fahker was an invaluable part of our coverage for more than two years. His depth of knowledge, his devotion to the story and his integrity were much admired by the reporters who worked with him."

Coincidence? Perhaps.

"Is this incident in any way related to the recent incidents involving UK intelligence?" is a good question. Not trying to suggest anything sinister about UK intelligence, just wanting a clearer picture of what's going on in Basra, because there evidently IS quite a lot going on there....

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Reid defends Basra jail raid

David Fickling and agencies
Tuesday September 20, 2005

Iraqi policemen walk through debris at the central jail in Basra. Photograph: Nabil al-Jurani/AP

The government today defended British troops' action in storming an Iraqi jail to free two colleagues amid strong criticism from Iraqi officials of yesterday's dramatic raid.
The defence secretary, John Reid, said the army had been "absolutely right" to break into Basra's Jamiat jail to help free the British soldiers, who were later found in the custody of militia forces.

"In the course of the day, while we were negotiating, in view of that fact that they weren't handed over, we got increasingly worried and the commander on the spot, with hindsight, was absolutely right to do what he did," Mr Reid said.

An adviser to the Iraqi prime minister, Ibrahim Jaafari, today spoke out against the raid. "It is a very unfortunate development that the British forces should try to release their forces the way it happened," Haider al-Ebadi told a Baghdad news conference.

Earlier Mohammed al-Waili, the governor of Basra province, described the prison raid as "barbaric, savage and irresponsible".

The violence in the previously calm southern city saw British troops pelted with petrol bombs and a hole blasted in the wall of the jail by British forces.

The two British soldiers, who Iraqi authorities allege were special forces men in civilian clothing, had been arrested and taken to the prison after exchanging fire with Iraqi police at a checkpoint earlier in the day. Some reports suggest an Iraqi police officer may have died in the skirmish.

Mr Reid told the BBC that the jail was targeted only after orders to release the British soldiers, given by local judges and the Iraqi minister of the interior, had been ignored.

In a statement on the incidents, the commander of the army's 12 mechanised brigade, Brigadier John Lorimer, said: "Later in the day, however, I became more concerned about the safety of the two soldiers after we received information that they had been handed over to militia elements. As a result I took the difficult decision to order entry to the Jamiat police station."

British forces have been widely praised for their low-profile policing of southern Iraq and Basra, the area left under their control after the Iraq war ended in 2003.

The region has been relatively free of insurgency because its majority Shia Muslim population were overwhelmingly opposed to Saddam Hussein's regime.

But tensions have mounted in recent months as strife between Sunni and Shia groups in the country has increased and Shia radicals have tightened their grip.

Things had now reached the stage where civil war was looming, the Liberal Democrat leader, Charles Kennedy, said today at the party conference in Blackpool.

"I think the events of the last 24 hours confirm what many of us have worried now over many months, that Iraq is moving more in the direction of civil war," he said.

The developments underlined the need for the government to come up with an exit strategy from their military involvement, he said.

"The most worrying thing of all is if we are now seeing a breakdown in communication, trust and cooperation between the British forces ... and aspects at least of the Iraqi domestic security forces. That really does begin to raise very profound questions indeed."

The scenes in Basra yesterday finally punctured the long-held image of calm in the city. A crowd of Iraqi demonstrators surrounded the British armoured vehicles stationed outside the Jamiat police station, pelting them with stones and petrol bombs.

TV images showed a soldier struggling out of a burning tank with his clothing on fire, while footage today showed a hole punched in the wall of the jail, buildings demolished, and cars crushed by tanks.

British claims that Iraqi police in Basra had passed the arrested soldiers on to militant elements reflected the views of Steven Vincent, an American freelance journalist killed in the city last month after he wrote an article accusing the Basra police of being infiltrated by Shia extremists.

An Iraqi journalist working for the New York Times was also found dead on the outskirts of Basra yesterday, after being taken on Sunday by men claiming to be Iraqi police officers.

Fakher Haider, 38, had his hands bound and was killed with at least one gunshot to the head, the New York Times reported.

Shia militants in the city have been flexing their muscles after the arrest of a commander of the Mahdi army militia on Friday.

On Sunday, 200 members of the private militia, loyal to radical Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, demonstrated in the city in a show of force.

British officials said yesterday's petrol bomb attack on a British tank was probably prompted by that dispute rather than the storming of Jamiat prison.

But an aide to al-Sadr warned that the incident would further inflame these tensions. "What the two Britons did was literally international terrorism," said Ali al-Yassiri. "If the British had condemned this, it would have calmed the situation but instead they came and demanded them back which sets a dangerous precedent."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1574381,00.html

Quote:

Iraq denounces British rescue in Basra
Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:00 PM BST

By Alaa Habib

BASRA, Iraq (Reuters) - Iraq denounced British forces on Tuesday over a dramatic rescue of two undercover soldiers that could stoke hostility towards foreign troops in increasingly volatile southern Iraq.

British troops used an armoured fighting vehicle on Monday to burst into an Iraqi jail in search of soldiers held by police in Basra. The British commander said he learnt they had been handed to militia and ordered their rescue from a nearby house.

"It is a very unfortunate development that the British forces should try to release their forces the way it happened," Haider al-Ebadi, an adviser to Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari, told a news conference in Baghdad.

The operation followed rioting that began, according to police and local officials, when the two soldiers fired on a police patrol. At least two Iraqis were killed in the violence.

Southern Iraq is home to several Shi'ite militias, including one loyal to radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, who fiercely opposes the presence of foreign troops and has led uprisings against the U.S. military.

Many Iraqis say the heavily-armed militias act with impunity and are not answerable to the central government.

Tensions in Basra had risen on Sunday when British forces arrested two leading members of Sadr's Mehdi Army militia.

The tough British response will further strain ties between Iraqis and British troops, who had maintained relatively good relations with the Shi'ite population of Basra by pursuing a low-profile security policy, in contrast to tougher U.S. tactics.

Britain, which has 8,500 troops in Iraq, said on Sunday it would send more if necessary. But a leaked memo signed by Defence Secretary John Reid in July envisioned bringing most of them home over the next year.

British soldiers have faced less popular anger in Iraq than their U.S. allies, but Iraqi police vented their fury in Basra as they inspected damage from the British raid.

"Four tanks invaded the area. A tank cannon struck a room where a policeman was praying," said policeman Abbas Hassan, standing next to mangled cars outside the police station and jail that he said were crushed by British military vehicles.

"This is terrorism. All we had was rifles."

Photographs of a burning soldier being pelted as he climbed out of a tank in Basra were splashed across British newspapers.

In Iraq, state television footage showed the two soldiers unshaven and looking nervous as Iraqi police looked over wigs, Arab headresses, an anti-tank missile and communications equipment, all apparently used in their mission.

Images of the pair seemed sure to fuel suspicions by militias in Basra and elsewhere who believe foreign troops are on a secret mission to exploit Iraq.

Unrest in the Shi'ite south, home to Iraq's biggest oil reserves, would pile pressure on the Iraqi government, which is already fighting a Sunni Arab insurgency further north and had hoped the south would remain relatively calm.

Residents of Basra urged British troops to leave Iraq.

"It is inappropriate for any Iraqi to be insulted by a British or an American or any other occupier, we reject the occupying forces," said Abbas Jassim.

"The British violated the government, police and the sons of this country, which we all reject."

British forces said the soldiers were in danger.

"From an early stage I had good reason to believe the lives of the two soldiers were at risk," Brigadier John Lorimer, the British commander in Basra, said in a statement.

SUSPICIOUS BEHAVIOUR

Ebadi said Iraqi security forces were justified in detaining the pair.

"They were acting very suspiciously like they were watching something and collecting information in civilian clothes in these tense times," he said.

The raid could boost the popularity of Shi'ite cleric Sadr, who can mobilise thousands of supporters quickly.

"What the two Britons did was literally international terrorism," Ali al-Yassiri, an aide to Sadr, told Reuters.

"If the British had condemned this, it would have calmed the situation but instead they came and demanded them back which sets a dangerous precedent."

Britain's Reid said the two soldiers were freed when negotiations appeared blocked.

"In the course of the day we became increasingly worried that those people in there to negotiate with the police seemed to be having no success in getting our men out," he said.

Reid said it was not clear whether the Iraqi police were under threat themselves or colluding with local militia.

Lorimer said troops had been sent to the police station where the two men had been detained to help ensure their safety.

"As shown on television, these troops were attacked with firebombs and rockets by a violent and determined crowd."

Elsewhere in Iraq, violence continued in areas controlled by U.S. forces.

Four U.S. soldiers were killed by roadside bombs, the U.S. military said on Tuesday, bringing the number of American soldiers to die in Iraq since the March 2003 invasion to 1,906.

(Additional reporting by Matthew Jones in London and Mussab al-Khairalla in Baghdad)

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-09-20T170025Z_01_HO032036_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRAQ.xml

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject:

Quote:

just wanting a clearer picture of what's going on in Basra, because there evidently IS quite a lot going on there....

Here is Juan Cole's timeline for the events in question, gleaned from various media:

Quote:

September 5:

The BBC reports that "Fusilier Donal Anthony Meade, 20, from Plumstead in south east London, and Fusilier Stephen Robert Manning, 22, from Erith in Kent, were killed by a roadside bomb on 5 September 2005 . . . They had been travelling in a convoy which was hit about five miles east of Shaibah airbase, in Basra province."

The British appear to have believed that this attack was the work of Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army.

September 11:

The BBC reports, "Major Matthew Bacon was killed in an attack in Basra, in southern Iraq, on 11 September 2005 when a roadside bomb struck the armoured vehicle he was travelling."

So the British are facing increased casualties and concerted attacks in early September. Convinced that the attacks are coming from Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army, they finally move against that group on Sunday.

September 18:

BBC World Monitoring
September 18, 2005

FURTHER ON AL-SADR AIDE'S ARREST IN BASRA

Text of report from Iraqi Al-Sharqiyah TV on 18 September

An Iraqi-British force at dawn arrested a prominent close associate of Al-Sayyid Muqtada al-Sadr in Basra City, southern Iraq. A spokesman for the British Army confirmed what Al-Sadr's Office in Basra announced, saying that Shaykh Ahmad al-Fartusi was arrested in his house along with his brother and a third man. The British spokesman said that the arrest took place following an investigation by the multinational forces regarding individuals who carried out terrorist attacks against the multinational forces.

Source: Al-Sharqiyah, Baghdad, in Arabic 1210 gmt 18 Sep 05"

This is the Multinational Forces announcement:

IRAQ: MULIT-NATIONAL DIVISION SOUTHEAST NAMES TERROR SUSPECTS:

In the early hours of Sept. 18, an operation was conducted by Multi National Division - South East in the districts of Al Jameat and Tuninah in Basra. This operation was the result of an ongoing Multi-National Force investigation that identified individuals believed to be responsible for organizing terrorist attacks against Coalition forces, resulting in the deaths of nine members of Coalition forces in the past two months in Basra. The operation resulted in three individuals being detained.

Among those arrested are Sheik Ahmed Majid Farttusi and Sayyid Sajjad, known leaders of the Mahdi Militia in Basra.

��I am well aware that the people that we have arrested are prominent individuals in Basra,�� commented Brigadier John Lorrimer, British Army commander of the 12th Mechanized Brigade in Basra. ��But let me make it absolutely clear: we have acted against them as individuals, not as members of any particular organization. As the people of Basra you are entitled to your own religious beliefs and political opinions. Those are not matters for MNF. We will not, however, tolerate terrorism and will act against it whenever we can.��

There were immediate protests by Sadrists in Basra, who barricaded the streets in the center of the city. AP reported that "200 militiamen with automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenades set fire to tires as they barricaded main streets". But then Muqtada's envoys dispersed them, asking them to stand down.

September 19:

On Monday there were further protests by Sadrists about the detainment of Shaikh Ahmad Fartusi and other Sadrist leaders.

The Washington Post reported, "Earlier Monday, gunmen loyal to Sadr attacked the house of Basra's governor to press demands for the release of two prominent members of the cleric's militia whom British forces arrested Sunday."

Two British undercover men seem to have seen something suspicious and intervened. But somehow they got involved in a firefight with Iraqi government police. The two Britons were slightly wounded and were captured by Iraqi police (which seems to be penetrated by the Badr Corps, the Sadrists and other Shiite paramilitaries.)

Then a Sadrist crowd tried to storm the jail where the two British special forces operatives were being held by the provincial government. The Shiite crowds appear to have intended to hold them as hostages to be traded for Fartusi et al.

It was at that point that the British tanks rolled against the jail.

In freeing the two Britons, they inadvertently let 150 other prisoners escape, presumably some of them involved in the guerrilla movement. Two Iraqis were killed in related violence.

Then crowds attacked British military vehicles, setting 2 afire with Molotov cocktails.

The entire episode reeks of "dual sovereignty," in which there are two distinct sources of government authority. Social historian Charles Tilly says that dual sovereignty signals a revolutionary situation.

Note that in Basra, a city of about 1.3 million, largely Shiite, the Muqtada al-Sadr group is not very big. Most Sadrists belong to the rival al-Fadila party, led by Muhammad Yaqubi. But small groups can cause a lot of trouble.

In other news, there were bombings outside Karbala and at Mahmudiyah targetting Shiite pilgrims to the holy city of Karbala to commemorate Muhammad al-Mahdi, the Shiite promised one. Several pilgrims were killed.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:46 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The entire episode reeks of "dual sovereignty," in which there are two distinct sources of government authority. Social historian Charles Tilly says that dual sovereignty signals a revolutionary situation.

http://www.juancole.com/

Yu_Bum_suk

Joined: 25 Dec 2004

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject:

So basically the SAS is getting arrested in a 'friendly, quiet' part of Iraq that the British have been occupying / helping to govern for 2 1/2 years. Then it takes a huge, armoured patrol to smash them out and rescue them. Could any other scenario show better that things are in fact not working out as planned or claimed in Iraq?

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