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Muslims make up 70% of prisoners in France
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Summer Wine

Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:18 pm Post subject:

I don't come from Canada. My understanding of the issue as I learnt it was that the definition of aboriginal was inconsistent with the actual desires and views of the people. It had been used in such a negative way and now had such negative connotations that the people would rather have their tribal names used instead specifically and called Australians in general. I guess Canada has the same problem with the term "indian". Maybe you could specifically identify the tribal group or nation that you identify, but I would recomend that in some places, check to see what a persons view is before using the word. It can save a verbal backlash from occuring. It is nothing personal to me, but as I mentioned to some it is a very negative term.

igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:31 am Post subject:

rapier wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

This clearly states 15% and this is up to date not nearly 20 years ago.
While aborginals may be over-representated in the prison population, it is nowhere near the 70% that you were attempting to imply it was.

Looks like you just opened a can of worms.

"Aboriginal women represent between one and two per cent of the Canadian population. Yet, they are 27 per cent of the women serving federal sentences."
http://dawn.thot.net/fsw2.html

Aboriginal peoples are over-represented in Canadian prisons. In 1999, the incarceration rate for Aboriginal people was 735 per 100,000 of the Canadian population, compared to a national average incarceration rate of 151 per 100,000.
http://www.prisonjustice.ca/politics/1012_failedexp.html

Better just stop there urban myth before i'm forced to reveal to the world the dark underbelly of Canadian racism against its native people. A shameful history of exploitation and a living apartheid.

Thanks Rapier, and well spoken.

As i was trying to emphasize: HIGHLY disproportionate. Grounds for deep concern regardless of the colour of our skin, beliefs, cultural heritage etc. For whatever reason, mind you, some people just gotta insist "I don't care what the obvious states, snow is really BLACK" Rolling Eyes

Now the medicine man comes and he shuffles inside
He walks with a swagger and he says to the bride
"Stop all this weeping, swallow your pride
You will not die, it's not poison"

Tiger Beer

Joined: 07 Feb 2003

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:59 am Post subject:

kermo wrote:

Summer Wine wrote:

First, I would like to make note that aboriginal is a negative term for some. Secondly I would like to make note that it is a very negative view.

I'm not sure where you're from, Summer Wine, but in Canada, there is no universally agreed-upon term for the people who lived there before European colonization.

"INDIGENOUS" is the term for most English-speaking countries.. not sure if Canada uses it or not.. but most other English-speakers do or have the option of using it.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:09 am Post subject:

rapier wrote:

[ An ancient culture living sustainably with its environment without destroying it: a welcoming and honest people betrayed by greedy land-grabing whites.

.

rapier rapier rapier, oh when will you learn? Did you really think that I was interested in debating with you? I was only interested in pushing your buttons enough so that you would show your true colours. And here you have by labeling all Americans and Canadians as "greedy land-grabing whites" It's "grabbing" by the way.

Now that I have exposed you for what you are, I will leave the thread having obtained my desired objective. Thanks for playing and the next time someone sets an obviously baited trap, don't walk straight into it.

rapier

Joined: 16 Feb 2003

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:35 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Did you really think that I was interested in debating with you?

Your rapid retreat from answering questions or addressing the issues (that you yourself raised), is a rather pathetic capitulation. I invited you to defend your country from certain assertions: you have come out with a lot of gobbledygook and run away. First you say any history before the official naming of the territory as canada in 1848 is irrelevant: then you refuse to debate because of a single spelling mistake: then you don't want to discuss because you don't like "my motives": then you admit to being ignorant of your national history ('wow, did slavery really exist in canada, golly!" Laughing

: ..you ignore all evidence or questions tackling issues that you started, then try to divert by bringing up whatever other irrelevancies you can muster: "have you paid M.O.S yet?" "All racism was by the French and the british, not Canadians" etc etc.

Even if you only want to discuss present day Canada, you have still refused to answer questions about the current disproportionate incarceration of native peoples.

Quote:

labeling all Americans and Canadians as "greedy land-grabing whites"

You're right, it was very generous of you to steal land from the natives and then subjugate, forcibly assimilate, and then finally mass incarcerate them.My mistake.

Quote:

It's "grabbing" by the way.

Pointing out minor spelling mistakes does not win a debate.

Quote:

Now that I have exposed you for what you are

Dude..what are you talking about? How many ridiculous excuses can you come up with for backing out of what you started? in either case i've already shown i know more than you about your own country: so you're right, its a good idea to find someone more credible to talk about the issue with.

Quote:

I will leave the thread having obtained my desired objective. Thanks for playing and the next time someone sets an obviously baited trap, don't walk straight into it.

You really have lost me here.
ok, fine: go:you'll be missed, bye.

I can't believe that the only Canadian on this thread has run off to sob into his pillow at the first sign of losing a discussion.

kermo

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:50 pm Post subject:

Tiger Beer wrote:

kermo wrote:

Summer Wine wrote:

First, I would like to make note that aboriginal is a negative term for some. Secondly I would like to make note that it is a very negative view.

I'm not sure where you're from, Summer Wine, but in Canada, there is no universally agreed-upon term for the people who lived there before European colonization.

"INDIGENOUS" is the term for most English-speaking countries.. not sure if Canada uses it or not.. but most other English-speakers do or have the option of using it.

It's a good word, but it's not in vogue at the moment to refer specifically to... um... "those people." Indigenous is used as a more general term, and would also include native Finlanders, Peruvians, New Zealanders... know what I mean?
I think we need to either just start calling them "Those People" or perhaps making up an entirely new word. Like "Squiefs."

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:31 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

The Bobster wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

My links shows that the overall aboriginal population in federal jails across Canada is 15%

The link also notes that indigenous folk make up only 3% of the total population ... and out of that 3% they somehow are represented in enough numbers to rank at 15% - can someone who is better at math than I am give a clue about what percentage of the entire native population is incarcerated? I'm a little curious.

However Rapier was attempting to claim that this is somehow comparable to the 70% of Muslims in French jails.

I had a different question. It had to do with the percent of the total of indigenouspeople in Canada who are incarcerated. I'm curious about it, and one or two have tried to pointme in the right direction - it WAS your link, originally, I thnk, so I was hoping if you responded to my post at all it would be to try to answer my question.

I'm not good at alliances, so save your breath about rapier. If you can't answer my question, don't bother, especially if you are going to use my post to springboard into an attack on another over something thatis irrelvant to what I was asking.

Ilsanman

Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:25 am Post subject: yes

The land was not stolen. It was traded for booze.

I admit, the natives didn't know what a contract or treaty was, but they signed it or agreed to it anyhow.

rapier wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Did you really think that I was interested in debating with you?

Quote:

labeling all Americans and Canadians as "greedy land-grabing whites"

You're right, it was very generous of you to steal land from the natives and then subjugate, forcibly assimilate, and then finally mass incarcerate them.My mistake.

Quote:

It's "grabbing" by the way.

Pointing out minor spelling mistakes does not win a debate.

Quote:

Now that I have exposed you for what you are

Quote:

I will leave the thread having obtained my desired objective. Thanks for playing and the next time someone sets an obviously baited trap, don't walk straight into it.

You really have lost me here.
ok, fine: go:you'll be missed, bye.

I can't believe that the only Canadian on this thread has run off to sob into his pillow at the first sign of losing a discussion.

rapier

Joined: 16 Feb 2003

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:37 am Post subject: Re: yes

Ilsanman wrote:

The land was not stolen. It was traded for booze.

I admit, the natives didn't know what a contract or treaty was, but they signed it or agreed to it anyhow.

19th century treaty signing between Native Indians and Canadian soldiers: Looks like they really had a choice in the matter.

When government representatives or individuals bought land from Indians, they assumed that they were acquiring all of the proprietary rights to the property. At the same time, the Indians often thought that they were only selling or leasing the use of the property. When the Indians did not leave the land or returned to it later to live, they were perceived as reneging on a legal contract. From their perspective, the European Americans were taking something that did not and could not belong to them.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/economy/econ_2.htm

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