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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| (Sorry, for intruding on this piece). |
No, I was wrong to try say 'bugger off if you didn't read it' in the OP. It was an attempt to control the thread (or rather keep it from devolving into the same old arguments), but I should have known better, such attempts are pointless on a message board and do more harm than good. I'm going to edit the OP now. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Joo,
Regarding the Caliphate/objectives of Al Qaeda & associated groups and the anti-war movement, I don't think I've ever come across anyone suggesting 'appeasement' or giving Al Qaeda what it wants.
When I hear 'anti-war movement' I think 'occupation of Iraq' and I believe the anti-War movement is right to protest the occupation of Iraq.
I know we have differences on that.
But I'm surprised to hear that you see the 'anti-War Movement' as encompassing appeasement to Al Qaeda. If there are some who voice such appeasement, they can't possibly be in the majority and would almost certainly be of the 'far left whack job' variety. I feel we should not bring up the far left and the far right whack jobs up as justification for any sort of policy decision, all that does is empower their nutty ideas. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Regarding the Caliphate/objectives of Al Qaeda & associated groups and the anti-war movement, I don't think I've ever come across anyone suggesting 'appeasement' or giving Al Qaeda what it wants. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cindy_sheehan
Lets see she wants the US to withdraw from Afghanistan
And she wants the US to do other things in regards to its foreign policy things that Bin Laden wants as if it would do some good. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Lets see she wants the US to withdraw from Afghanistan. |
As does Mike Scheur, although perhaps for different reasons-
I guess her reason is to prevent any more American or Afghani deaths?
And maybe me as well (regarding a withdrawal), but I would have rather seen more of a presence in Afghanistan; Still, withdrawing might be better than maintaining a half-assed mission (if indeed that is what it is... not too sure about that either way, which is why I'm not sure on the withdrawal issue).
I guess the future will tell.
| Quote: |
| And she wants the US to do other things in regards to its foreign policy things that Bin Laden wants as if it would do some good. |
Well, right now I'm too lazy to read the Wiki article on her, what sort of things?
But I'm not sure it matters much to me, given:
| Bulsajo wrote: |
| But I'm surprised to hear that you see the 'anti-War Movement' as encompassing appeasement to Al Qaeda. If there are some who voice such appeasement, they can't possibly be in the majority and would almost certainly be of the 'far left whack job' variety. I feel we should not bring up the far left and the far right whack jobs up as justification for any sort of policy decision, all that does is empower their nutty ideas. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
Leslie, in the last chapter (or rather, after having finished the book) I was left with the impression that he saw the following as key changes to policy (and I can't say I agree with them, or at least entirely agree with them):
* Do not 'half-fight' wars. This includes do not occupy countries where there is no value in doing so (i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan). He would like to see the US conduct massive punitive raids/expeditions, and then leave.
*Stop trying to be 'international policeman'. Disengage from international events/incidents whre the US has no direct tangible interest. Stop trying to export democracy to places that don't want it and aren't ready for it. I think he lists Somalia, Rwanda, Bosnia, Israel... He also puts it as 'get used to watching other people die'.
*Disengage from being the automatic ally of Israel. In terms of foreign policy treat it like any other country.
*Disengage from corrupt Arab & Muslim states. This entails disengaging from an oil based economy, or somehow become self sufficient in oil.
*"Start telling the truth" at least as far as the intelligence, military and policy communities are concerned- don't keep feeding the politicos what they want to hear but tell them how things really are. I don't think he named names in this respect but my example of this would be Tommy Franks letting Rumsfeld push him around on objectives and number of troops neccessary for Iraq (See Woodward's Plan of Attack)
I just want to make clear that the above isn't what he wrote so much as the summary of my impression of what policy change he wanted to see. I've merged some points that he had as separate ones and vice versa, and outright skipped others. |
Yeah, that's a pretty good summary of his ideas, at least from what I remember. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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He definitely had some wierd ideas (or perhaps a wierd way of expressing what seems to be a sensible idea and then taking it to an unreasonable extreme):
The US should act more 'manly' in its military affairs and its memorials, in that memorials of 9/11 are memorials of a defeat and shouldn't be overly glorified, and professional soldiers are paid to die so the US shouldn't flinch when the body count rises. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
Joo,
Regarding the Caliphate/objectives of Al Qaeda & associated groups and the anti-war movement, I don't think I've ever come across anyone suggesting 'appeasement' or giving Al Qaeda what it wants.
When I hear 'anti-war movement' I think 'occupation of Iraq' and I believe the anti-War movement is right to protest the occupation of Iraq.
I know we have differences on that.
But I'm surprised to hear that you see the 'anti-War Movement' as encompassing appeasement to Al Qaeda. If there are some who voice such appeasement, they can't possibly be in the majority and would almost certainly be of the 'far left whack job' variety. I feel we should not bring up the far left and the far right whack jobs up as justification for any sort of policy decision, all that does is empower their nutty ideas. |
Not everyone in the antiwar movement to be sure , but lets remember around 15% of Americans opposed US going after Afghanistan after 9-11.
I would guess about 1/3rd of the antiwar people want the US to "back off" Al Qaida and do foreign policy policy in such a way so that it would not make Bin Laden angry, these people also blame the US for 9-11.
People like International ANSWER , people like George Galloway, and probably a majority supporters of the publication Counterpunch. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Not everyone in the antiwar movement to be sure , but lets remember around 15% of Americans opposed US going after Afghanistan after 9-11.
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Well, they're probably balanced out by 15% on the other side who feel the Bush Administration has done everything right and and anyone who disagrees is a traitor and a terrorist. As I've said, I don't think there's much point in debating the extremes. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
He definitely had some wierd ideas (or perhaps a wierd way of expressing what seems to be a sensible idea and then taking it to an unreasonable extreme):
The US should act more 'manly' in its military affairs and its memorials, in that memorials of 9/11 are memorials of a defeat and shouldn't be overly glorified, and professional soldiers are paid to die so the US shouldn't flinch when the body count rises. |
Why is that strange? The US's great weakness is its unwillingness to suffer casualties to advance its agenda abroad. He's also right about the 9-11 memorials being a memorial of defeat. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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