Site Search:
 
Speak Korean Now!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

On Katrina : Galloway Won't Go Away
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rather expected this when I posted the OP : almost no one who has responded has addressed the actual issues in the stements made by Mr Galloway, but instead those who have registered diputes did so on the basis of attacking the man rather than the words and tghe ideas behind them.

Gwangjuboy :
Quote:
There was nothing in any of my posts in this thread which refered to his assertion that the war was based on a pack of lies. If you want to discuss that, start a new thread sparky.

Actually, GB, it's THIS thread that is about his assertion that the war was based on a pack of lies. It is YOu who needs to start a new thread if you want to talk about something else.

Well, here are the three paragraphs, one more time, and one more chance for any of you who have anything relevant to say about what Galloway actually did say.. .

From The Capitol Times, Web Edition :

"The scenes from the stricken city almost defy belief. Many, many thousands of people left to die in what is the richest, most powerful country on Earth. This obscenity is as far from a natural disaster as George Bush and the U.S. elite are from the suffering masses of New Orleans. The images of Bush luxuriating at his ranch and of his secretary of state shopping for $7,000 shoes while disaster swamped the U.S. Gulf Coast will haunt this administration.

"In the most terrible way imaginable they show to the whole world that it is not only the lives of people in Baghdad, Fallujah and Palestine that Bush holds cheap. It is also his own citizens - the black and poor people left behind with no food, water or shelter. This is not simply manslaughter through incompetence, though the White House's incompetence abounds. It is murder - for Bush was warned four years ago of the threat to New Orleans, as surely as he was warned of the disaster that would come of his war on Iraq. ...

"His is the America of Halliburton, the M-16 rifle, the cluster bomb, the gated communities of the rich and of the billionaires he grew up with in Texas. There is another America. It is the land of the poor of Louisiana, it is the land of the young men and women economically conscripted into the military. It is the land of the glorious multiethnic mix that was New Orleans, it is the land of Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and of great struggles for justice."


Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee :
Quote:
See George Tenent.

He no longer works for the CIA, I believe. If you call something a "slam dunk,"it really ought to be that, wouldn't you say?

Quote:
Besides if the US thought Saddam didn't have WMDs the US would have come up with another reason for the war.

Methinks you are doing a very good job arguing Gallaoway's case for him ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
See George Tenent.


The Bobster wrote:
He no longer works for the CIA, I believe. If you call something a "slam dunk," it really ought to be that, wouldn't you say?


Just a clarification on this point guys: CIA execs, present and former, meticulously and religiously try to avoid commenting on presidents who are still in office. Helms, Bissell, and Shackley waited until they were dead to publish their memoirs, for example.

I've seen hints from fomer DDCI McLaughlin that there's more to the story, and there's a bigger context than we currently know, for Tenet's infamous "slam dunk" prediction. I'd also be very interested to read Powell's accounting of his tenure as SecState, hoping that he'll provide a detailed discussion on why he resigned -- they always do; Stephanopolous calls Hillary a "biatch" at one point in his memoirs, for example -- before taking Tenet to the iron-maiden on this thing...that is, they are called "fall guys" for a reason.

So if anyone was twisting anyone else's arm on this issue, it was coming from the Bush Administration and not Langley, even though, based on current information in the public domain (mostly journalistic reporting), it looks an awful lot like Tenet traded his objectivity to be closer to the President and "on the team."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:18 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Quote:
Just a clarification on this point guys: CIA execs, present and former, meticulously and religiously try to avoid commenting on presidents who are still in office. Helms, Bissell, and Shackley waited until they were dead to publish their memoirs, for example.


I'm going to try to be as diplomatic as possible.

Quote:
I've seen hints from fomer DDCI McLaughlin that there's more to the story, and there's a bigger context than we currently know, for Tenet's infamous "slam dunk" prediction.


A "bigger context"? Let's clear the air here. Is this like your "bigger context" argument that Bush was just following JFK's inclusion of Bobby Kennedy in the Bay of Pigs to excuse Bush for appointing a man with no practical experience to head FEMA?

You've seen "hints"? If you do intend to make an argument here, why don't you explain the "hints" you've seen? I went to see my palm-reader. He "hinted" that someone parading "hints" as evidence might only be parading that. Did you write your master's dissertation about "hints"? If not, do you expect that "hinting" at things pulls some kind of special weight here?

Quote:
I'd also be very interested to read Powell's accounting of his tenure as SecState, hoping that he'll provide a detailed discussion on why he resigned -- they always do


Very academic.

Quote:
Stephanopolous calls Hillary a "biatch" at one point in his memoirs, for example -- before taking Tenet to the iron-maiden on this thing...that is, they are called "fall guys" for a reason.


Hey, don't criticize Stephanapolous. You're flogging a dead horse.

Quote:
So if anyone was twisting anyone else's arm on this issue, it was coming from the Bush Administration and not Langley, even though, based on current information in the public domain (mostly journalistic reporting), it looks an awful lot like Tenet traded his objectivity to be closer to the President and "on the team."


WOW! That's stupendous! After playing Dems vs. Dems, you finally arrive at blaming the Bush administration. Hey Goph, quiet down your propaganda. Let's wait for the "right time".

Did your master's study ever lead you to Cheney's immediate pre-war visitation of the CIA?

You can ignore that while talking about Stephanopolous calling Hillary a "Biatch"?

I DO NOT NEED PEOPLE LIKE YOU ON MY SIDE.

Nothing for me today, thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Nowhere Man wrote:
Quote:
Just a clarification on this point guys: CIA execs, present and former, meticulously and religiously try to avoid commenting on presidents who are still in office. Helms, Bissell, and Shackley waited until they were dead to publish their memoirs, for example.


I'm going to try to be as diplomatic as possible.

Quote:
I've seen hints from fomer DDCI McLaughlin that there's more to the story, and there's a bigger context than we currently know, for Tenet's infamous "slam dunk" prediction.


A "bigger context"? Let's clear the air here. Is this like your "bigger context" argument that Bush was just following JFK's inclusion of Bobby Kennedy in the Bay of Pigs to excuse Bush for appointing a man with no practical experience to head FEMA?

You've seen "hints"? If you do intend to make an argument here, why don't you explain the "hints" you've seen? I went to see my palm-reader. He "hinted" that someone parading "hints" as evidence might only be parading that. Did you write your master's dissertation about "hints"? If not, do you expect that "hinting" at things pulls some kind of special weight here?

Quote:
I'd also be very interested to read Powell's accounting of his tenure as SecState, hoping that he'll provide a detailed discussion on why he resigned -- they always do


Very academic.

Quote:
Stephanopolous calls Hillary a "biatch" at one point in his memoirs, for example -- before taking Tenet to the iron-maiden on this thing...that is, they are called "fall guys" for a reason.


Hey, don't criticize Stephanapolous. You're flogging a dead horse.

Quote:
So if anyone was twisting anyone else's arm on this issue, it was coming from the Bush Administration and not Langley, even though, based on current information in the public domain (mostly journalistic reporting), it looks an awful lot like Tenet traded his objectivity to be closer to the President and "on the team."


WOW! That's stupendous! After playing Dems vs. Dems, you finally arrive at blaming the Bush administration. Hey Goph, quiet down your propaganda. Let's wait for the "right time".

Did your master's study ever lead you to Cheney's immediate pre-war visitation of the CIA?

You can ignore that while talking about Stephanopolous calling Hillary a "Biatch"?

I DO NOT NEED PEOPLE LIKE YOU ON MY SIDE.

Nothing for me today, thanks.


I have to admit that I have not read this as closely as I could, but I seem to hear two allies shouting at each other over the screech of the bombs sailing over head.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

read what I wrote again, compare it with the OP, then go read what a straw man is.
once again, a year later, when you finally understand just what it is, come back and say sorry.

Hey Joo, you are an American, no? Go fight. Put your arse where you mouth is and go fight the good fight. Or perhaps you are a member of that class of Americans who is too valuable to fight, on account of the importance of their job...

And here is a nice article about the quality of American discourse these days...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers171.html

Often, when you haven't a leg to stand on, you will feel tempted to make ad homonyms.

Don't.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, my apologies to Bobster. I intended to make a minor comment in your thread, to clarify a small point that you and Joo were discussing -- not to provoke more of the usual, or should I say, "inevitable."

Now, I see that my tag-team snipers are back in action, mischaraterizing me and, of course, quoting each other again! For the purposes of entertaining those others besides me who have to read their "commentary" if we want to follow this thread, I'm going to rename them "Thing One and Thing Two" from The Cat in the Hat.

Here you go, you two:

"Thing One and Thing Two. Thing Two and Thing One! They can do anything, anything, anything under the sun!" (That's you two Wink .)

But are either of you capable of doing anything other than causing random destruction or simply going after whatever I might post here in Pavlovian style?

That is, do you stand for anything or do you just intend to dazzle us with negativity and sarcasm indefinitely, and every time you hear your bells ringing? Is there any message we're supposed to be getting here other than you're angry with Bush? or that Nowhere Man seems to really resent that I have a Master's degree (thus the neverending sarcastic references to it)? Is that all that there is to you? Because there's nothing to you, then.

It's become so predictable that it's boring.

So your words are a waste of space. Not even irrelevant anymore.

Now go ahead and come on back and post something bitter and sarcastic, lob insults and mischaracterize things I've said from ten other threads that you've been keeping track of, and claim that you've proven that I'm not really a Democrat or whatever it is that your agenda is these days (did I not not already say that you were entirely predictable!?).

Have your last word. You know you can't resist it...come on! come on, Thing One and Thing Two!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bulsajo



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD wrote:
And here is a nice article about the quality of American discourse these days...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers171.html

What a great piece, quality of discourse is only one of the things the writer touches on, though I was left with the overall impression that the author was dealing with a bout of his own little reverse-culture shock.
On the whole an excellent read, thanks for posting it.

And from that same site I am finding the following to be interesting reading, even though I am only half way through it:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/speech-antiwar.html

...In any case, I was glad to speak before this group, and they were gracious to ask. The challenge was to put together a three-minute speech that summed up the libertarian case against the Iraq War � not easy to do.

I was aware that I was a token non-leftist speaking to a largely leftist audience.

Among the slogans of the day was that we should spend less on the war and more on social needs. Libertarians can agree in some way: give everyone back their money and let each individual spend on his or her social needs!

There are two potential failings in such a venue: kowtowing to the audience or, the opposite error, ungraciously rubbing their noses in their inconsistencies. It strikes me that the only way to proceed here is simply to tell what's true as best as one is able, and to heck with rhetorical strategy...


Comments on his speech can be found here:
http://blog.mises.org/blog/archives/004129.asp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:


What the hell are you posting about? I sure as heck made no comment about you on this thread... Nah, you don't provoke anyone.... Rolling Eyes (and that applies regardless of who you were referring to.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
See George Tenent.


The Bobster wrote:
He no longer works for the CIA, I believe. If you call something a "slam dunk," it really ought to be that, wouldn't you say?


Just a clarification on this point guys:

Look, I guess I have to say it again : the things I quoted from Joo were merely illustrative of the fact that so far no one has cared to comment of the actual words and ideas that Galloway actually spoke regarding Bush and Katrina ... and this remains true, at least, so far.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:
but instead those who have registered diputes did so on the basis of attacking the man rather than the words and tghe ideas behind them.


Are you blind? I posted two Galloway quotes and ripped into him based on the words that eminated from his mouth.


Quote:
Actually, GB, it's THIS thread that is about his assertion that the war was based on a pack of lies. It is YOu who needs to start a new thread if you want to talk about something else.


The thrust of the article was about Galloway's criticism of the administration. This thread was given the title "Katrina; Galloway won't go away." Excuse me for thinking the thread was intended to reflect the spirit in which it was created. Maybe next time you should think for a while about what title you are going to christen future threads with.


Quote:
Well, here are the three paragraphs, one more time, and one more chance for any of you who have anything relevant to say about what Galloway actually did say.. .



He has said some really stupid things in his time. Why should we take him seriously here? Just for the record, do you agree with his assertion that Iraqi insurgents DON'T attack civilians?


Last edited by Gwangjuboy on Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:
Gopher wrote:
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
See George Tenent.


The Bobster wrote:
He no longer works for the CIA, I believe. If you call something a "slam dunk," it really ought to be that, wouldn't you say?


Just a clarification on this point guys:


Look, I guess I have to say it again : the things I quoted from Joo were merely illustrative of the fact that so far no one has cared to comment of the actual words and ideas that Galloway actually spoke regarding Bush and Katrina ... and this remains true, at least, so far.


Your point is a valid one. And like I said, mine was just a small clarification on a mere detail.

It is frustrating when someone picks apart someone else's words via personal attack only...don't you think that I have any experience with that here?

People should just stick to issues, facts, and interpretations. No matter who is saying what, people should consider these things on their own merits, each and every time, and with no sarcasm, which is simply inappropriate and not productive in exchanges of views. There's another thread somewhere on Dave's that asks "What kind of forum do you want?" That's my answer.

But that would be too professional for this board, which is increasingly just a collection of petty people bearing personal grudges against others, people they have never even met in person...just look at Thing One's "post" above, purely personal attack not against Galloway, but against me, which, as you know, has nothing at all to do with any issue this thread has raised and is utterly pathetic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BJWD

Galloway is still radical and a friend of dictators.

Why should anyone follow his " analysis/ advice " when he has the record he does?

Here is a message for you and Galloway , there would have been no war if the Bathists , Khomeni followers and Bin Laden followers and similar types gave up their war. If they don't want to give up their war then the US is justified in doing anything and everything to force them to.

By the way BJWD do you oppose the war in Afghanistan?



Bobster the fact that George Tenent is not at the CIA means what about what he said while he was at the CIA?

Bush probably thought that Saddam had WMDs there were lots of reasons to think so. But the biggest one was that he would never have come up with such a reason if he though the issue would come back to haunt him.

I don't see how that confirms what Galloway has said.

Bobster I will deal with part of Galloways' speech.


Quote:
Baghdad, Fallujah


The insurgents have a right to ask for independence. However to target other ethnic groups is evil. to try to stop elections that you can't win, is wrong and to fight for the Bathist or Al Qaida system is criminal.

Quote:
Palestine.


There would already have been a Palestinian state if Afafat had't turned down Clintons' offer.

By the way what do you think Galloway meant by Palestine?

What did Cindy Sheehan mean by "Israel out of Palestine"


From another thread Bobster said:

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=43216&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90

Quote:
keep waiting for someone to explain why opposition to our massive support of that country, and that alone, is evidence of racial and religious bigotry, and so far no one has connected those dots for me.



What do you mean by support? Really I would like to know. What do they (Cindy and others with similar views about US foreign policy ) by support?


I don't think the US should 3B a year to Israel- the US can't afford it , on the other hand I don't think Al Qaida or similar groups would stop their war were the US to do so.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I admit it. It was my own fault.

I offered Gorgeous George's three paragraphs with no commentary of my own, so why should I have expected anyone else to to look at even one of them and decide if there is anything there that can be disagreed with? Therefore, after several pages of discussion about the man who spoke (rather than the words and ideas he spoke) and, let's face it, a whole lot about the rancor we all feel toward each other ...

We've been fisking stuff the man said years ago - and fisking each other (find an internet dictionary if you haven't come across this verb so far) and I was hoping we would do better - so, I'll give it a try myself.

George Galloway said :
Quote:
"The scenes from the stricken city almost defy belief. Many, many thousands of people left to die in what is the richest, most powerful country on Earth.

It's true that we believe oursleves to be the richest country in the world, and by strict numerical standards of currency this is certainly true. As I have grown older and seen more of human life, however, I have come to feel that wealth is not always measured in decimal places in a bank account, but perhaps more accurately in the quality of the human relationships one has acquired, and power is not so much about what you can destroy but what you can build, and what you can persuade others around you to help get built.

New Orleans was not a wonderful place to live even before it was destroyed - I saw it a long time ago, in my youth and while the romance inherent in the location entranced me, I did not choose to stay there long - I don't think the years that intervened improved it much. I saw wonderful, even magical, things in my time there but the place was a disaster area for the poor, and especially the black poor long before the first drop of rain from Katrina fell on it.

George Galloway said :
Quote:
This obscenity is as far from a natural disaster as George Bush and the U.S. elite are from the suffering masses of New Orleans. The images of Bush luxuriating at his ranch and of his secretary of state shopping for $7,000 shoes while disaster swamped the U.S. Gulf Coast will haunt this administration.

He's talking about the enormous gap that exists between the rich and the poor in America. if we are the wealthiest, most powerful country in the world, how can we abide a situation in which people die when waters rise - for no other reason than that they had no car or could not afford the gas?

For balance and perspective, and perhaps a very apropos reading on what Bush has been doing, this is from a recent interview with Bill Clinton :

(...l) all I can tell you is that when James Lee Witt ran FEMA, because he had been both a local official and a Federal official, he was always there early, and we always thought about that. But both of us came out of environments with a disproportionate number of poor people.

I think that we were sensitive to the racial issue, but I think we were sensitive to the economic issue. And you can't have an emergency plan that works if it only affects middle class people up, and when you tell people to go do something they don't have the means to do, you're going to leave the poor out.


I guess what I love about this is that "Blow Job Bill" did not need to shout from the rooftops that Bush appointed a former college roommate of a political supporter to a place in the govt where the lives of thousand or millions of people were at stake - because Bush comes from rich people and so did "you did a heck of a job, Brownie" ... he didn't have to say that a responsible leader appoints responsible people - he didn't HAVE to say that, because we already know it.

George Galloway said :
Quote:
"In the most terrible way imaginable they show to the whole world that it is not only the lives of people in Baghdad, Fallujah and Palestine that Bush holds cheap. It is also his own citizens - the black and poor people left behind with no food, water or shelter.

I think I don't need to quote what Dubya's Mom, Babs, said about the evacuees, do I? We've read it already, and we need to remember it : "This is working out very well for them."

George Galloway said :
Quote:
This is not simply manslaughter through incompetence, though the White House's incompetence abounds. It is murder - for Bush was warned four years ago of the threat to New Orleans, as surely as he was warned of the disaster that would come of his war on Iraq. ...

This might be why no one has yet addressed Galloway's words here directly - it is a fact that Bush's policies put FEMA in a subservient role to Homeland Security and when a time came for FEMA to act, there was no one in place except a guy whose last job had been overseeing competitions between Arabian horses ... I'm not sure that "murder" is too strong a word for this kind of malfeasance.

George Galloway said :
Quote:
"His is the America of Halliburton, the M-16 rifle, the cluster bomb, the gated communities of the rich and of the billionaires he grew up with in Texas. There is another America. It is the land of the poor of Louisiana, it is the land of the young men and women economically conscripted into the military. It is the land of the glorious multiethnic mix that was New Orleans, it is the land of Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and of great struggles for justice."

I read this, and I could not find a single word that was wrong - I won't agree with everything the man has said in the past, but no one here has even attempted to naysay a syllable of what is here in these three paragraphs.

I've tried for several days to get any of you to try. No one has even attempted it. So, I had to do it myself.

Now, of course, you can all argue about The Bobster instead of Galloway ...


Last edited by The Bobster on Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
George Galloway said :
Quote:
"In the most terrible way imaginable they show to the whole world that it is not only the lives of people in Baghdad, Fallujah and Palestine that Bush holds cheap. It is also his own citizens - the black and poor people left behind with no food, water or shelter.

I think I don't need to quote what Dubya's Mom, Babs, said about the evacuees, do I? We've read it already, and we need to remember it : "This is working out very well for them."



Quote:
Baghdad, Fallujah



The insurgents have a right to ask for independence. However to target other ethnic groups is evil. to try to stop elections that you can't win, is wrong and to fight for the Bathist or Al Qaida system is criminal.

Quote:
Palestine.



There would already have been a Palestinian state if Afafat had't turned down Clintons' offer.

By the way what do you think Galloway meant by Palestine?

What did Cindy Sheehan mean by "Israel out of Palestine"


Kuros writes better than me;

Quote:
Yes. A lot of policy decisions made directly or at least permitted by Bush have resulted in the deaths of Iraqis. Some people died directly at the hands of American bombings. Some people die because of American forces screw-ups. Some members of the insurgency are there because the Americans incensed them by engaging in searches, seizures, and arrests on dubious grounds without any sort of due process (or at least any readily discernable or transparent to Iraqis).

OTOH, America is not the one detonating its agents on the streets of Iraqi cities, and America is not the one who reniged on treaty agreements in relation to Fallujah's status. In terms of Fallujah, the US gave that city an extra chance in order to avoid spilling blood. The mullahs and militiamen and councilmen in charge there took it as a sign of weakness and Fallujah immediately became a place where not only the broader Sunni insurgency was supplied, but so destabilized that Jihadists were running out of it. As for Palestine. WTF? Is Bush responsible for every act that Israel does? Is Israel even responsible for all the deaths that happen in Palestine?

Get a grip, Galloway.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International