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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Bulsago, I must apologise, I was misreading your original quote. I thought that you found a problem in there being a canadian weapon available or that you thought maybe Canadians were involved even in a small way and that this was a bad thing. I apologise.  |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:16 am Post subject: |
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I don't believe either is the case (particularly as OTOH has given a good explanation as how this part of the article could have been inadvertent) but I don't think you misread my post in that- yes, a Canadian weapon could possibly be a strong indicator of Canadian involvement in Basra/Iraq and yes, that would- for domestic political reasons- be a very bad thing if brought to light.
BTW I came across an article (no link, but it's out there somewhere) last night which said the 2 soldiers detained had been covertly working on investigating cross-border arms smuggling. If that's the case then there could be a whole host of plausible reasons why they might have been in possession of a wide variety of firearms from a wide variety of countries, including Canadian made ones. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Here is a UPI article about the supposed smuggling investigation:
http://tinyurl.com/cu7hk
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BASRA, Iraq, Sept. 25 (UPI) -- Two British soldiers arrested by Iraqi police were engaged in a secret war against weapons smugglers on the Iraqi border, the Sunday Times of London reported.
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| but I don't think you misread my post in that- yes, a Canadian weapon could possibly be a strong indicator of Canadian involvement in Basra/Iraq and yes, that would- for domestic political reasons- be a very bad thing if brought to light. |
Can you explain why this would be a bad thing for domestic political reasons. My understanding is that Canada does not support the war in Iraq or provide troops or military support. The inclusion of an individual or 10 who were seconded to the British military and for all intents and purposes are British forces would not mean that Canada is supporting the War.
A second question is whether Canada still has the British Royal as the titular head of the Country. This would impact in another way, but would still remove Canada from any responsibility. What if there is a Canadian working in the US military on exchange as an intelligence officer in Iraq or dealing with issues related to Iraq, would this be an issue domestically?
Just curious what your take on it is. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Can you explain why this would be a bad thing for domestic political reasons. My understanding is that Canada does not support the war in Iraq or provide troops or military support. The inclusion of an individual or 10 who were seconded to the British military and for all intents and purposes are British forces would not mean that Canada is supporting the War. |
I guess it's inadvertant but you make it sound so nice and neat, as if military operations were conducted in a political vacuum. I'm sure we can both agree that that is almost never the case.
Well, I'll try to summarize it.
The current Liberal regime kept us out of Iraq.
It was a contentious decision for a while and the split in opinion was usually along party lines...
Anyway, the upshot right now is that Canada is not a part of the 'Coalition of the Willing'.
Canada has not agreed to provide troops for any sort of Iraq deployment. Any Canadian forces, such as JTF2 seconded to the UK, are still going to be "Canadian troops in Iraq" to the Canadian public.
As per above, things like military secondments and exchange programs amongst Nations, even close allies, do not operate in a political vacuum- there are always political considerations of one sort or another.
Saying "Oh, well right now they're technically a part of the British military, you see." would be looked at as nothing less than unforgivably duplicitous on the part of the government.
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| A second question is whether Canada still has the British Royal as the titular head of the Country. |
yes.
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| This would impact in another way, but would still remove Canada from any responsibility. |
The Queen would remove Canada from any sort of responsibility?
Dude, I have absolutely no idea what you're on about. I suspect Canadian views on the royals and UK's 'soveriegnty' are about the same as Australia's. In other words, divided. And certainly the Queen 'removing responsibility' from the current Canadian govt. is an idea that would fly as far and as fast as a lead balloon.
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| What if there is a Canadian working in the US military on exchange as an intelligence officer in Iraq or dealing with issues related to Iraq, would this be an issue domestically? |
Well, define 'intelligence officer'.
What would his duties and responsibilities be?
(i.e. yes, there may be wiggle room for a desk-jockey analyst-type, but somebody in the field? Forget it). |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
This would impact in another way, but would still remove Canada from any responsibility.
The Queen would remove Canada from any sort of responsibility?
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I think SW might have the impression that since Canada is still formally ruled by the Queen, it is obligated to participate in British military exercises, and that the Canadian government could just say "hey, we had no choice, Britain went to Iraq so we had to go too".
If that's what you were thinking, SW, it's not the case. The Canadian military functions completely independently from the British military. The two nations do co-operate on many military matters, but I think that's mostly through the NATO alliance, not through any system of colonial obligations.
It IS true that the Queen occasionally interevenes in Canadian politics, but as far as I know only at the request of the government. The last time I can recall was when the Conservative government was trying to pass the national sales tax into law, and the unelected Liberal senate was blocking the bill, which had already been okayed by the elected commons. The Tories sent someone to London, and got permssion from Her Majesty to add a few more seats to the senate, which were then filled by Tory appointees. But this was a rather unique case, because you had an unelected body killing legislation had already been passed by the elected one. |
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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:21 am Post subject: |
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The SAS basically carry whatever weapons they feel comfortable in the field with.(if it was them who were involved)
They also recruit members from the commonwealth.So there is a chance that the soldiers caught were of Canandian nationality and 'earth' was moved to get them out of the clink.
Doubt it though....Canadians arent tough enough to get in. |
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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Maybe the soldiers were wearing Canadian Maple leaves on their
Headscarves so that the Iraqis didnt think they were Americans. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| waggo wrote: |
| The SAS basically carry whatever weapons they feel comfortable in the field with.(if it was them who were involved) |
Never said they didn't. Feel free to re-read my post, the one where I indicate why it is unlikely (not impossible) that anyone but a Canadian would be using Canadian-made firearms.
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| They also recruit members from the commonwealth.So there is a chance that the soldiers caught were of Canandian nationality and 'earth' was moved to get them out of the clink. |
Yes that is a possiblity.
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| Doubt it though....Canadians arent tough enough to get in. |
Oh boo hoo, Waggo has impugned my manhood, now I'd better go home and cry.
But of course we both know Canadian nationals have served in the Special Forces regiments.
But that's not the same as active CF members operating under UK command in Basra though, is it?
Anyway, it was one line in a news article to which I made one post about, and the last two pages of of this thread has been clarifying that one post to people and consequently blowing this into something more significant than it is, especially considering a plausible explanation has already appeared.
I'm dead tired of repeating myself here so that's all I have to say. |
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supernick
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Doubt it though....Canadians arent tough enough to get in. |
Proof, or are you just talking out of your ass again? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| waggo wrote: |
| Doubt it though....Canadians arent tough enough to get in. |
The American government was more than happy to use Canadian commandos in Afghanistan. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Iraqis Catch 2 Americans Trying To Ignite Car Bomb 
Irarwar.mirror-world.ru
10-14-5
A number of Iraqis apprehended two Americans disguised in Arab dress as they tried to blow up a booby-trapped car in the middle of a residential area in western Baghdad on Tuesday.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag
Residents of western Baghdad's al-Ghazaliyah district told Quds Press that the people had apprehended the Americans as they left their Caprice car near a residential neighborhood in al-Ghazaliyah on Tuesday afternoon (11 October 2005). Local people found they looked suspicious so they detained the men before they could get away. That was when they discovered that they were Americans and called the Iraqi puppet police.
Five minutes after the arrival of the Iraqi puppet police on the scene a large force of US troops showed up and surrounded the area. They put the two Americans in one of their Humvees and drove away at high speed to the astonishment of the residents of the area.
Quds Press spoke by telephone with a member of the al-Ghazaliyah puppet police who confirmed the incident, saying that the two men were non-Arab foreigners but declined to be more precise about their nationality.
Quds Press pointed out that about a month ago, the Iraqi puppet police in the southern Iraqi city of al-Basrah arrested two Britons whom they accused of attempting to cause an explosion in the city. The Britons were taken into custody by the Iraqi puppet police only to be broken out of prison by an assault of British occupation troops.
That incident has created a tense relationship between the British and the local puppet authorities in al-Basrah, Quds Press noted.
http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/66432
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
A number of Iraqis apprehended two Americans disguised in Arab dress as they tried to blow up a booby-trapped car in the middle of a residential area in western Baghdad on Tuesday.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag
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The quote above does not appear in the wiki article. Probably it did at one time. Click the link for "discussion," and you see this :
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| This page was recently nominated for deletion, and the consensus decision was to keep it. The deletion debate is archived here. ugen64 04:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
Click further, andf you find it underwent a LOT of talk and back and forth before the present small entry. Stuff like this is why wikis ought not be offered as unbiased, reliable and authoritative sources, at least as regards topics under the heading of "current events." They are, seems to me, discussion forums like ours but in a different format. I might sometimes link to another sort of discussion forum, but only for interest's sake, not as way to convince people of what is true. I think similkar caveats ought to applied to wiki, at least with regard to certain topic.
The concept behind wiki is sound, but during the period when the entries are new and still being discussed among the contributors, it's not really safe to rely on them. Several weeks ago, I looked up Cindy Sheehan, for instance, and a few days later saw wiki provided as a source in a thread here with a lot of stuff I never saw the first time I looked at that heading - of course it had been added just recently.
Wiki is cool, don't get me wrong, but on topics of a debatable nature it's subject to flux in the short-term, and just because you read an entry once don't expect that is there is to learn about it. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
A number of Iraqis apprehended two Americans disguised in Arab dress as they tried to blow up a booby-trapped car in the middle of a residential area in western Baghdad on Tuesday.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag
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The quote above does not appear in the wiki article. |
That's right. In fact i don't believe it ever did.
The quote was part of the NEWS article, the WIKI link was simply to help illustrate this nature of this alleged activity.
Do you understand the connection now?
btw - It's interesting how this matter ( if it in fact happened ) was completely ignored by the western media.
Secondly, as helpful as WIKIPEDIA is, don't you agree it has a certain NEWSPEAK quality to it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| igotthisguitar wrote: |
A number of Iraqis apprehended two Americans disguised in Arab dress as they tried to blow up a booby-trapped car in the middle of a residential area in western Baghdad on Tuesday.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag
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The quote above does not appear in the wiki article. |
That's right. In fact i don't believe it ever did.
The quote was part of the NEWS article, the WIKI link was simply to help illustrate this nature of this alleged activity.
Do you understand the connection now?
btw - It's interesting how this matter ( if it in fact happened ) was completely ignored by the western media.
Secondly, as helpful as WIKIPEDIA is, don't you agree it has a certain NEWSPEAK quality to it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak |
Apologies for the misunderstanding, but looking back at your post, I can see why I was confused about the direction the quotes sprang from. It simply was not clear enough as written. |
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