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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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 Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:54 am Post subject: EFL Industry Korea: Why is it so corrupt? |
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Ok, i'm splitting this off this side-discussion on thread about David Kang's arrest.
| bosintang wrote: |
I admit it, I'm fascinated by this. How is something like English-teaching, on the surface so innocous and uncontroversial, have such a terribly run industry? What I find almost equally as fascinating is how so many expats believe, or at least treat, this kind of industry behaviour as normal,when it's far from it. Imagine we were a bunch of software-testers instead of English teachers. Would we be concerned about what visas other software testers are on? Or about what their educational background is? Would immigration have to go around to software companies to make sure their employers were "qualified" to be doing what they were doing?
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Sadly enough Mr. bosintang, within the English-speaking industry, this behaviour is normal believe it or not. Why?
(a) Hakwon owners who need an English-speaker for the business (and it is a business first and a school second,) which accounts for some of the nonsense that goes on here.
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In other industries they need to fill positions too, but they don't hire people they don't feel are unqualified for the job because *they're bad for business!* How is the EFL industry any different? Obviously it is different, but it speaks volumes about the lack of standards and goals of this industry rather than the quality of employees.
What is the role of native speakers in Korea? What are we expected to provide while working here? Has anyone, whether hagwon or public school ever been asked about their teaching methods before being hired? Has anyone ever had a clearly defined expectations and a role?
And why are the standards between what schools (employers), employees, and the government believe suitable for this role, so out of line with each other?
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(b) Greedy recruiters who need to fill their quota and are prepared to do so by any means necessary
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Again, other industries, the IT industry for one, have headhunters. Employers *still* don't hire people they don't feel are qualified for the job, and a headhunters reputation severely depends on the people he places. Why is this not true in the EFL industry?
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(c) Greedy expats who can't get a job back home and come over on the expectation of having a "working holiday".
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They only come because someone invites them. Mindmetoo once gave the airline industry as an example. A pilot would be a dreamjob for an unqualified alcoholic with a penchant for traveling, but as a rule, the airline industry doesn't hire unqualified alcoholics. Why is the EFL industry different? See above.
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(d) The government of Korea which tolerates this, knowing that if they put stricter standards for the hakwons (like we would have back home) there wouldn't be enough QUALIFIED people willing to come over. Why should they? They've already got much more secure jobs at home.
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Why is the government responsible for the complete policing of the EFL industry and doing such a poor job at it? Why can't the EFL industry at least partially self-regulate itself? It defies economics.
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By no means an exhaustive list but I believe this covers the main points.
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What else is there?
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It's why I left the industry and now teach in a public school.
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I applied for a GEPIK position through a recruiter and they were practically kissing my ass to accept the job before I even had an interview with them. Like it or not, us hagwon monkeys are the face of what you do. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:13 am Post subject: Re: EFL Industry Korea: Why is it so corrupt? |
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| bosintang wrote: |
Ok, i'm splitting this off this side-discussion on thread about David Kang's arrest.
| bosintang wrote: |
I admit it, I'm fascinated by this. How is something like English-teaching, on the surface so innocous and uncontroversial, have such a terribly run industry? What I find almost equally as fascinating is how so many expats believe, or at least treat, this kind of industry behaviour as normal,when it's far from it. Imagine we were a bunch of software-testers instead of English teachers. Would we be concerned about what visas other software testers are on? Or about what their educational background is? Would immigration have to go around to software companies to make sure their employers were "qualified" to be doing what they were doing?
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Sadly enough Mr. bosintang, within the English-speaking industry, this behaviour is normal believe it or not. Why?
(a) Hakwon owners who need an English-speaker for the business (and it is a business first and a school second,) which accounts for some of the nonsense that goes on here.
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(1) In other industries they need to fill positions too, but they don't hire people they don't feel are unqualified for the job because *they're bad for business!* How is the EFL industry any different? Obviously it is different, but it speaks volumes about the lack of standards and goals of this industry rather than the quality of employees.
What is the role of native speakers in Korea? What are we expected to provide while working here? Has anyone, whether hagwon or public school ever been asked about their teaching methods before being hired? Has anyone ever had a clearly defined expectations and a role?
And why are the standards between what schools (employers), employees, and the government believe suitable for this role, so out of line with each other?
| Quote: |
(b) Greedy recruiters who need to fill their quota and are prepared to do so by any means necessary
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(2) Again, other industries, the IT industry for one, have headhunters. Employers *still* don't hire people they don't feel are qualified for the job, and a headhunters reputation severely depends on the people he places. Why is this not true in the EFL industry?
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(c) Greedy expats who can't get a job back home and come over on the expectation of having a "working holiday".
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(3) They only come because someone invites them. Mindmetoo once gave the airline industry as an example. A pilot would be a dreamjob for an unqualified alcoholic with a penchant for traveling, but as a rule, the airline industry doesn't hire unqualified alcoholics. Why is the EFL industry different? See above.
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(d) The government of Korea which tolerates this, knowing that if they put stricter standards for the hakwons (like we would have back home) there wouldn't be enough QUALIFIED people willing to come over. Why should they? They've already got much more secure jobs at home.
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(4) Why is the government responsible for the complete policing of the EFL industry and doing such a poor job at it? Why can't the EFL industry at least partially self-regulate itself? It defies economics.
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By no means an exhaustive list but I believe this covers the main points.
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What else is there?
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It's why I left the industry and now teach in a public school.
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I applied for a GEPIK position through a recruiter and they were practically kissing my ass to accept the job before I even had an interview with them. Like it or not, us hagwon monkeys are the face of what you do. |
(Numbers are mine.)
I can't believe someone who has been on the boards for so long doesn't know this...but here goes.
1. They don't have enough people willing to come over here. They have to take what they can get.
2. See above
3 See above
4. See above.
It's us, or nothing.
That's why there are people working here on forged degrees. They can't get enough people who have real degrees to come on over. They have to take whoever's willing to come. They have no choice. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Korea isn't willing to pay what it would take to get truly qualified people over here. They aren't even willing to pay what it would take to get a surplus of people over here, so they could at least weed out the bottom ones. They have to take whatever they get and that's why the situation is the way it is today. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:37 am Post subject: Re: EFL Industry Korea: Why is it so corrupt? |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
1. They don't have enough people willing to come over here. They have to take what they can get.
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I *do* know this. But it's rules of supply and demand. If there's not enough quantity supplied to meet quantity demanded, then rules of economics dictate that monetary prices should rise or the quality of product being supplied should drop until supply and demand are in equilibrium.
So we have people coming on fake documents and people who are pretty well useless as employee in any industry. That still begs the question: why are standards between teachers, government, business (the schools), and customers (students, parents) so out of line with each other?
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That's why there are people working here on forged degrees. They can't get enough people who have real degrees to come on over. They have to take whoever's willing to come. They have no choice. |
They *do* have a choice. They have a choice not to go into this industry at all. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| EFL Industry Korea: Why is it so corrupt? |
I think Korea is, in general, pretty corrupt. And I think the EFL industry is, in general, pretty corrupt. It makes for a hell of a Venn diagram. This is not rocket science.
| Bosintang wrote: |
| I *do* know this. But it's rules of supply and demand. If there's not enough quantity supplied to meet quantity demanded, then rules of economics dictate that monetary prices should rise or the quality of product being supplied should drop until supply and demand are in equilibrium. |
Ever hear of your local hagwon owners association?
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| That still begs the question: why are standards between teachers, government, business (the schools), and customers (students, parents) so out of line with each other? |
Basically because the students don't care enough to change the status quo. If Koreans were more demanding consumers of education, owners would scramble to find better teachers, and teachers would be held to higher standards. Honestly, I think it would be best for everyone if there was a huge dive in the demand for English lessons.
This is why I don't take Korean complaints of "all foriegn teachers are losers" seriously. Koreans, in general, get the education they deserve. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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My friend's an ESL teacher in Vancouver and they have plenty of BS over there, too.
However, I'd say that 90% of the problems brought up on this board at some point boil down to the fact that Korean parents are idiots. |
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guangho
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: a spot full of deception, stupidity, and public micturation and thus unfit for longterm residency
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Korea is a tribe, not a society. By that I mean Koreans stick together, think the same way, sort of blend with one another and (understandably given their history) unite in a negative way against outside forces. This has nothing to do with thought and reason. It is pure emotion, a mixture of fear and raw racial hatred.
On another level, Koreans as a general rule, are deeply corrupt. Even my Korean friends have admitted this. (But did not see anything wrong with it.) So take a corrupt industry and a tribe mentality and when combined you will see the Korean EFL industry. There is plenty of b.s. in other countries as well- private language schools are for the money above all else, and that is just as true in Sacramento as in Seoul. The factors outlined above however make Korea even worse than most places. As long as Koreans hate outsiders and consider it fair game to treat them like animals nothing will change. |
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hojucandy
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: In a better place
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:16 am Post subject: |
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i think guangho is spot on there.
most koreans are greedy and materialist people with no interest about the welfare of others. put someone like that in business and yu get corruption.
hagwons are not very different to any other korean business except for needing foreigners - which compound the equation further.
thay said - i have actually worked in a couple of schools that really did care about my teaching abilities. |
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Zenpickle
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Location: Anyang -- Bisan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:32 am Post subject: |
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I see many similarities between the hagwon industry and the restaurant industry. A lot of the desperate things I see hagwon owners do are similar to what desperate restaurant owners do. It sounded strikingly familiar when I was reading Anthony Bourdain's chapter in "Kitchen Confidential" titled "Owner's Syndrome and Other Medical Anomalies."
Basically, a lot of people who enter the EFL business have no experience in the business, like the guy who made a lot of money selling aluminum siding feels like it would be fun to open a restaurant. Both industries deal with their share of prima donnas and criminals leading to high turnover rates. The profit margin is very slim, encouraging stranger and stranger behavior in owners. They start playing around with things that only superficially make a difference to the business while sacrificing the basics --
RESTAURANT - Toying with the menu and creating weird theme nights and karaoke while sacrificing food quality
HAGWON - Displaying the foreign staff like prized zoo animals in more creative ways and circulating sleek brochures while neglecting the teaching staff and curriculum
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So basically, clueless owners, professional and criminal staff, fickle clientelle -- disaster gumbo. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| hojucandy wrote: |
| i think guangho is spot on there. |
I disagree with Guangho, if only because Koreans are constantly screwing each other too. How many of us have worked at hagwons where, if you weren't getting paid, neither were the Korean staff? My friend the hardass just spent most of a day trying to pry her 6 mil won key money out of her former landlord. And he had the money kicking around. He just didn't want to part with it that day.
Most will present a united front against us, but I think that "one Korea" nonsense is the only thing keeping this country from bursting at the seams some days.
So it's not that I think that Koreans hate foriegners especially, we're just easier to roll than the locals.
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| most koreans are greedy and materialist people with no interest about the welfare of others. |
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| However, I'd say that 90% of the problems brought up on this board at some point boil down to the fact that Korean parents are idiots. |
Those I can agree with. |
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Grotto
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| In other industries they need to fill positions too, but they don't hire people they don't feel are unqualified for the job because *they're bad for business!* How is the EFL industry any different? |
In other industries the consumer usually knows what a good product is or isnt. Here in Korea the parents knowledge of English is negligible so they are unable to form an opinion about the quality of programs or instructors.
Its like the blind leading the blind.[/code] |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Grotto wrote: |
In other industries the consumer usually knows what a good product is or isnt. Here in Korea the parents knowledge of English is negligible so they are unable to form an opinion about the quality of programs or instructors.
Its like the blind leading the blind. |
Yes, the hogwon mothers are particularly annoying in their expectations...almost as annoying as the hogwon directors who promise them all things when they sign up.
It's a hopeless situation that will only continue as is indefinitely. A lot of interests have their hands in this cookie jar: book producers and peddlers, hogwon franchises, etc. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Grotto wrote: |
In other industries the consumer usually knows what a good product is or isnt. Here in Korea the parents knowledge of English is negligible so they are unable to form an opinion about the quality of programs or instructors.
Its like the blind leading the blind. |
It's a hopeless situation that will only continue as is indefinitely. A lot of interests have their hands in this cookie jar: book producers and peddlers, hogwon franchises, etc. |
It feels hopeless to me, too. At least until the hagwon generation grows up and wants their childhood back. |
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mysteriousdeltarays
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Food Pyramid Bldg. 5F, 77 Sunset Strip, Alphaville
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:02 am Post subject: |
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I've always hated the little Boxes that quote ones from the past.
You are a friend of a friend of mine.
I honestly don't know what the answer is. They like 24 year old girls.
I mean that is really the answer. I don't that it is a very realistic conception of the world.
I've decided to be become a "recruiter" I'll spend $39.95 and I'm in business. I think I'll get the jobs from other sites. Berlitz and Kids Klub are good, push them off to kids who are too young to know what is going on.
Gee, you tell me do you think it has to the recruiters?
I spent three years in Vietnam not exactly as a tourist. God is probably isn't so happy wih me as I am.
Let's troll and allure naive Canadain girls to working for wonderland. We'll just abandon her there. The faster she flies the more money coming into me. The faster they fly the more money I will make! |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:07 am Post subject: |
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That's a very interesting example Zenpickle. Your analogy here between the two sounds spot-on!
In a way that completely sums up my feeling of the education system in Korea. It's fast-food education. The parents buy a little English here, a little Korean there, maybe a dash of science during summer vacation. Since the parents treat their children's education like they're ordering fast-food, it's no surprise that's the way i'ts served to them!
| Zenpickle wrote: |
I see many similarities between the hagwon industry and the restaurant industry. A lot of the desperate things I see hagwon owners do are similar to what desperate restaurant owners do. It sounded strikingly familiar when I was reading Anthony Bourdain's chapter in "Kitchen Confidential" titled "Owner's Syndrome and Other Medical Anomalies."
Basically, a lot of people who enter the EFL business have no experience in the business, like the guy who made a lot of money selling aluminum siding feels like it would be fun to open a restaurant. Both industries deal with their share of prima donnas and criminals leading to high turnover rates. The profit margin is very slim, encouraging stranger and stranger behavior in owners. They start playing around with things that only superficially make a difference to the business while sacrificing the basics --
RESTAURANT - Toying with the menu and creating weird theme nights and karaoke while sacrificing food quality
HAGWON - Displaying the foreign staff like prized zoo animals in more creative ways and circulating sleek brochures while neglecting the teaching staff and curriculum
--
So basically, clueless owners, professional and criminal staff, fickle clientelle -- disaster gumbo. |
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