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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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 Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Scott in HK wrote: |
| Ignorant of the problems the cycle of violence brings to society. |
And it's made Korea into this violent society. Yeah, next theory. |
The next time your boss takes a temper tantrum and you think to yourself how he has the conflict management skills of a 3-year old, remember this. |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Scott in HK wrote: |
| Ignorant of the problems the cycle of violence brings to society. |
And it's made Korea into this violent society. Yeah, next theory. |
If by 'next theory', you mean 'next theory I can make up and attribute to another poster, then go ahead...no one is stopping you. I never said this, nor do I believe it.
YBS wrote
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| Have you ever taught classes of 35-45 middle school students? |
Yes, I have. I have been teaching for over 10 years. I have taught kindie to retirees...from 1 on 1's to classes of over 50 middle school students. I have had chaos and I have had order. I just never hit the students. It isn't an either or choice to hit your students. You have other choices.
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| Does 'the Korean way' get credit for this as well? |
I don't think I have ever said that hitting students didn't work...I said that it is a poor choice of classroom discipline because it involves hitting children. And no...I give no credit to any system that makes people into 'angels' with the threat of a beating if they fail in their attempt to be perfect. Are they angels because they are good people or just so frighten of being beaten that they behave. What happens when the threat of being hit is removed? They have learned nothing about being good excpet that involves fear and violence.
And the biggest problem with hitting is as some other poster has said on a previous thread...escalation...
Mr Pink wrote
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| WHACK on the head with the book usually gave them the message I wasn't happy. |
And if it didn't...did you hit the again....each time with just a little more force until they got the message...??
edited once to replace 'quote' with 'theory'....2 year old daughter erased the quotes as i was typing the message and i had quotes on my mind
Last edited by Scott in HK on Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in HK wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Scott in HK wrote: |
| Ignorant of the problems the cycle of violence brings to society. |
And it's made Korea into this violent society. Yeah, next theory. |
If by 'next quote', you mean 'next quote I can make up and attribute to another poster, then go ahead...no one is stopping you. I never said this, nor do I believe it.
YBS wrote
| Quote: |
| Have you ever taught classes of 35-45 middle school students? |
Yes, I have. I have been teaching for over 10 years. I have taught kindie to retirees...from 1 on 1's to classes of over 50 middle school students. I have had chaos and I have had order. I just never hit the students. It isn't an either or choice to hit your students. You have other choices.
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Classes of 50 middle school students in Korea? What do you think happens if you kick a kid out of class and the vice principal walks by or dam-eam sungsaengnim hears about it? How much choice do you have what happens then?
Another point about the lack of good behaviour amongst Korean kids vs the amount of hitting that goes on: could it be that middle schools' methods and regimentation are a remedial necessity given the absolutely piss poor parenting skills most Koreans have when it comes to little children. Elementary, and especially pre-elementary, children are allowed to run wild right under their parents noses, are often aparently taught no respect for others and have no social skills, and discipline consists of occasionally getting walloped when they piss off mummy or bring home bad marks from school. Then they get to middle school and suddenly the teachers are responsible for making them learn from 8.20 to 4.30 and trying to provide an orderly environment. If Korean parents stopped treating their kids like little emperors and princesses 95% of the time (and whipping boys the other 5%), and actually concerned themselves with things like rewarding good manners and thoughtfulness (and leading by example), then perhaps higher schools wouldn't be faced with nearly the number of problems they are. As it is, given educational expectations, I'm not going condemn Korean teachers who use the threat of the stick to back up what they say.
Another obvious point is that we're dealing with a severely fucked up system here. Some of my high school students are in the dok-sa sil 11.30pm and then start again at 7.30am. Take away the sticks and there'd be no way they could get everyone to follow the programme. If you want a kinder, gentler way in Korea first convince them to reduce class size to 30 max and hours at school to 8 per day - then more 'enlightened' methods might have a chance. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in HK wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Scott in HK wrote: |
| Ignorant of the problems the cycle of violence brings to society. |
And it's made Korea into this violent society. Yeah, next theory. |
If by 'next quote', you mean 'next quote I can make up and attribute to another poster, then go ahead...no one is stopping you. I never said this, nor do I believe it. |
You stated that Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:22 pm. Are you drunk? So, next theory.
Anyway, I don't hit my students. If they're bad, I eject them from class. If the Korean head teacher wants to whack them on the hand with her paint mixer, I don't really care. Should foreign teachers use physical punishment in class? No. It's not part of our culture. In my culture, the principle with the strap and the parents are the only ones who can administer physical punishment to a child. Should you try every other method first? For sure. Yes, I try to create a fun and respectful atmosphere in my class. I always praise my students for their efforts. I reward them with treats and games for good behavior. Bad behavior I'll start with a simple no. Then a louder no. Then I'll eject the student.
After that it's out of my hands. I'm sorry if the Korean teachers use physical punishment but when they do, the kid sure does come back into class quiet and cowed. I've seen a kid given a good public beating with a paint mixer and I've rarely had trouble with that kid after. When that happens and if the kid's behavior is reformed, I will reward the kid with some comic books.
Physical punishment is a tool. It should be the last resort but it is always an effective, looming threat. |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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mindmetoo
Maybe you could just read what I wrote rather than insulting me. You do seem to need a few comprehension lessons.
I said that the cycle of violence brings problems to society....that is all...it contributes to some of the problems in society..
YOU said that it made Korea into a violent society. I didn't. Simply read what I wrote...do not add to it what you think...
So it is your theory...not mine. |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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YBS...
Yes there are reasons for the existence of the discipline system. That doesn't make it a good system. Koreans might not have any other choices right now for a variety of reasons..and that still doesn't make it a good system. Poor parenting skills doesn't make it a good system.
Hitting people to change their behaviour is a poor way of going about as you never really get real change. And the students who leave school and become parents never learn a different way of doing things. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| Scott in HK wrote: |
mindmetoo
Maybe you could just read what I wrote rather than insulting me. You do seem to need a few comprehension lessons.
I said that the cycle of violence brings problems to society....that is all...it contributes to some of the problems in society..
YOU said that it made Korea into a violent society. I didn't. Simply read what I wrote...do not add to it what you think...
So it is your theory...not mine. |
So, long story short you DID say it. Cycle of violence implies, you know, a cycle. As in violence begets violence. I don't think of Korea as a particularly violent society. Are you just offering us platitudes without thinking of what you're actually writing? |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Short story short...no...hate to break the news to you..but I didn't say Korea was a violent society. I said that violence existed within the society. There is a huge difference. You are putting words into my mouth.
And violence in all societies existed before formalized schooling so I doubt the school system could have created the violence.
It never really works out trying to tell others what they were/are thinking. You can talk about what you got from the text...but you can't tell me what I was thinking when I wrote it. This is basic reading theory. Something maybe you should brush up on.
parting thought...glad you think so little of your students that you don't care what happens to them when they leave your class...hints at the kind of person you are in the classroom and out
classrooom discipline thought...you shouldn't give warnings...rookie mistake...go straight to the consequences... |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:12 am Post subject: |
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Scott in HK, I always love getting into this debate with you. I remember we did it a year or so ago.
When you quoted me as hitting a student on the head with a book, that was a lifetime ago in hawgwon hell. You see, believe it or not, they actually hire people in Korea who are not trained as teachers. *gasp* And they give little training when you do get here. Yeah I know it is kinda an excuse, but the thing is, I learn. I learned there are far more effective ways in dealing with students than by having to ever hit them. After seeing how Korean students recieve corporal punishment, I think the students who I happened to bang on the head with my book - oh so long ago, prolly thought it was more of a joke. I hope you grasped my feelings towards hitting students personally. In the past 6+ years of teaching I have never hit a student. Even when told flat out that I should, even when I had Satan's son and daughter in my class, I prefer to work on a student in other ways. I think of it like this: if you plant a crop, you have to put a lot of work into it to get a good harvest. If you just throw the seeds on the ground and hope something grows, you won't get very good results. Likewise, I have learned that by putting in time with bad students, they actually can be taught to be well behaved. I have seen this in action more times than I can count.
I would just like to point out though, you make comments concerning Korea and Koreans. That is where I like to give you a little bit of a hard time. Calling teachers lazy, ignorant or stubborn isn't right. The teachers are just working within a system created by society. The problem imo is bigger than just labelling adjectives onto the situation, as I am sure you might be aware now that you are in Korea again.
Lastly, I want to comment on your comment that corporal punishment leads to a violent society...is this just your opinion or do you have some facts on this? I'd be very interested to read some studies done on this. |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Ignorant of the problems the cycle of violence brings to society. |
This is my quote...I didn't leads...I didn't say causes...I could have used the word contributes...
From
Coporal Punishment in Schools
A Position Paper of the Society for Adolescent Medicine, Journal of Adolescent Health: 1992; 13:240-246
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The Promotion of the Wrong Message: Violence
The use of corporal punishment in schools promotes a very precarious message-that violence is an acceptable phenomenon in our society. It sanctions the notion that it is meritorious to be violent toward our children, thereby devaluing them in society's eyes (9,19). It encourages children to resort to violence because they see their authority figures or substitute parents using it. It also sanctions the use of physical violence by parents toward their children. Parents are not trained to use alternatives to corporal punishment and encouraging them to hit their children is a dangerous message to promote in our violent society. Many parents were abused themselves as children, and this will only worsen the violence our children must face. The result is that we are harming our children in teaching them that violence is acceptable, especially against the weak, the defenseless, the subordinate-a message which will negatively effect generations yet unborn. Violence is not acceptable and we must not support it by sanctioning its use by such authority figures as school officials (23). We must develop and maintain a nonviolent temperament and orientation toward our children (7). |
This is the sort of thing I am talking about.
I understand that Koreans are perhaps locked into a system. But it should be every teacher's (and parent's) goal to change the system...to make every attempt to start moving in a new direction. Either they are ignorant of the harm they are causing their kids and society in the long run (very possible and understandable if they haven't look into the problem)....or they just don't know what to do about it (which is also very possible but still falls under the definition of ignorance....or they know that they must change but are too lazy (or perhaps scared) to make the necessary changes. It is a long and difficult process and it will be hard to make the general population understand the need...but it must be done.
Mr. Pink...
I never actually thought that you would escalate the violence in your class..and due to our past discussions, I knew this all in your 'before'....but I was trying to point the underlying faults with the premise that you can just threaten them or just hit them a little. This is rarely the case...eventually you have to hit them...and then hit them harder...the more often you administer coroporal punishment to one student...it will be necessary to up the ante each time to gain the same effect.... |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in HK wrote: |
YBS...
Yes there are reasons for the existence of the discipline system. That doesn't make it a good system. Koreans might not have any other choices right now for a variety of reasons..and that still doesn't make it a good system. Poor parenting skills doesn't make it a good system.
Hitting people to change their behaviour is a poor way of going about as you never really get real change. And the students who leave school and become parents never learn a different way of doing things. |
And is to which might be the *better* system, might this be striking a compromise between your way and the Korean way, using what works best to get the greatest amount of learning done in the classroom without relying strictly on fear to motivate? |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure there is a compromise. I don't think you can have any hitting as a form of punishment. But if you are thinking along the lines of some sort of physical punishment....cleaning...running...doing jobs around the school...then yes...I think these could be appropriate consequences for certain actions.
Appropriate consequences, I think, are at the heart of any good discipline system. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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I found an interesting site that talks about this topic:
http://www.nospank.net/sam.htm
The thing is:
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| It is critical that our teachers receive as much support and training as possible in their efforts to maintain effective classroom control without resorting to violent techniques. Such training should include instructions on the deleterious short- and long-term consequences of corporal punishment. Schools should have an ample supply of counselors, especially for younger children. Schools need to have in-school suspension facilities, while avoiding use of large classroom sizes. Schools' policies need to allow for a wide variety of teaching and disciplinary methods which deemphasize the necessity for corporal punishment. The input of parents and students into such policies is critical to its overall success. An effective relationship must be developed between school officials, parents, and students to develop sensible rules which have appropriate consequences when infractions inevitably occur |
This is a quotation from that webpage...I just don't see this happening in Korea for quite some time. My high school has NO counselors. Korean teachers are expected to be counselors, teachers and administrators. Korean classroom sizes are embarrassing. 40-55 students per class. The input of Korean parents is: get my kid into a SKY university, if you need to hit them, so be it.
There are a few interesting pages out there I have read. The most amazing thing to me was a citation that 47% of people polled in the US were in favor of corporal punishment. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in HK wrote: |
I am not sure there is a compromise. I don't think you can have any hitting as a form of punishment. But if you are thinking along the lines of some sort of physical punishment....cleaning...running...doing jobs around the school...then yes...I think these could be appropriate consequences for certain actions.
Appropriate consequences, I think, are at the heart of any good discipline system. |
Planning as fun and engaging a lesson as possible with lots of praise and rewards but having a Korean co-teacher with a big stick seems a wonderful compromise for teaching 1st and 2nd grade middle school classes. Beyond that age group I'd rather rely on my own methods of persuasion, which is easy enough as I don't have to assign and check homework or make them keep appalling hours or force them to study for exams. Considering expectations, I don't blame my co-workers for the methods they use, apart perhaps from not trying harder to make learning more interesting. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Back in the dazeeeeee when I was in school, (Oh God here he goes  )
corperal punishment was still used. I used to get my fair share of "the strap", but more often I just got "bawled out".
It usually did get me to behave better for the short term, but it always left me with resentful feelings towards the teacher.
When I was in grade 12, I was kind of a show-offish jerky type, (I think you know what I mean) and one day I litteraly plowed into one of my teachers in the doorway. It was an accident, but it was my fault for running down the hall and into the room. I fully expected the teacher to give me the 5th. degree and haul me off to the office..........etc.
But he didn't.
To my surprise and shame, he just looked at me funny and walked away.
I was so embarrassed I had to hide my face.
But I sure respected that teacher a lot more than all the ones who gave me the old style "bawling out".
It's a lesson I try to remember when I am faced with disruptive students.
I have to admit that my first year here, I didn't remember that lesson and that was one of the most difficult teaching years of my life.  |
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