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hack
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And most foreigners are the same. All over the world most people are greedy and materialist. Korea is not unique in this regard. I don't understand why people profess such outrage over it, when their home countries are just as bad. For Canadians remember Adscam? That was just last year. Americans, Kiwis, Brits can remember their own recent scandels. Very few countries or people have clean hands which makes the posturing of some people on this board laughable. |
Korea may not be unique as to being greedy and materialistic but how on earth can you say Canada is just as bad because of Adscam? The point is that it was revealed. I hardly think that Korea reveals even a small percentage of corruption. The point being made here is that basically most Koreans take part at some level in graft and/or corruption.
Last year I was called in by my dept chair and told that I had to raise a student's mark from C to A. No questions allowed and if I didn't do it, he would override my grade input and do it. My conract renewal would be withdrawn if I didn't comply. End of conversation. What do you think that was all about?
A temp instructor was busted by immigration for no visa-he was in limbo waiting to go go to Japan but the uni made him teach and he got approached by an immi officer on the subway, panicked and spilt the beans. That problem went away the following week-no explanations offered for his new visa and when questioned he just says "I can't talk about it" WTF????
My students lie and cheat and when caught lie about lying. IT IS INGRAINED IN THEM!!! Lying, cheating and corruption is an accepted way of life here. The sad thing is that most of them may not even feel it's wrong.
If you think Korea is no worse than other first world countries I think you are either being an apologist or if you truly believe it, have lived here too long. This country is full of liars, cheaters, con men, corrupt officials, and inept business people. But it is their way of life and no foreign group with as little clout as EFL teachers is ever going to change it. That will have to come from the foreign business community.
But I refuse to accept that all 1st world countries are the same. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Well they are. They are just better at hiding it. And graft and corruption do get revealed here. Remember Korea has not been a democracy for as long as America and Canada have been. Students cheat and lie in America and Canada too. Ever been a teacher in Canada? They do that just as much there, but they are not as obvious about it. That's really the only difference. Living in the "hakwon world" is quite a bit different from living in the "real world". The former does tend to be full of liars and cheats, even more so than the latter. This can distort one's viewpoint and frequently does.
Aha, the old apologist label. "If you say anything good about Korea, you are an apologist." Guess that makes you a "whiner" then.
Have a nice day!  |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't call you an apologist, but I would call you someone that doesn't know what he's talking about. Ever taught at a Korean university? If your school in Canada was as bad for cheating, lying, and plagiarising not to mention sexual harassment and hygiene as my "university" here is, please don't tell me where it is. |
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YoungLi
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| And most foreigners are the same. All over the world most people are greedy and materialist. Korea is not unique in this regard. I don't understand why people profess such outrage over it, when their home countries are just as bad. For Canadians remember Adscam? That was just last year. Americans, Kiwis, Brits can remember their own recent scandels. Very few countries or people have clean hands which makes the posturing of some people on this board laughable. |
I couldn't agree with you more TheUrbanMyth except the "laughable" part. I think that it's sad how so many westerners (especially Americans) tend to be so blind towards the corruptness of government, corporate scams and injustices within their own country while being so quick to point fingers at other non-western countries for the same.... If the US government/corporate/military response to the Katrina disaster or the Enron scandal don't wake people up to reality I guess nothing will.
Pyongshin Sangja wrote:
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Laugh, laugh laugh.
If you think Canada is as corrupt as Korea, I have a department store in Seocho-gu to sell you. Perhaps a bridge over the Han. Maybe we can go for a ride on the Daegu subway system together. Or perhaps you'd like to buy some Daewoo shares. |
Let's turn this around. If you think Korea is as corrupt as America, I have two deparment stores in Plymouth and Troy, Michigan to sell you. Perhaps a bridge over/in Lake Pontchartrain. Maybe we can go for a ride on the New York subway system together. Or perhaps you'd like to buy some Enron shares. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Nope, differences of scale. Besides, I never mentioned America. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| All over the world most people are greedy and materialist. Korea is not unique in this regard. I don't understand why people profess such outrage over it, when their home countries are just as bad. |
I am really beginning to hate this argument in all its variations.
All politicians are corrupt, so why bother holding this one accountable.
All news is spun, so why listen to the news.
All people are greedy, so why single out this one.
This argument is a cop out. By shrugging your shoulders and saying "Meh, they're all the same", you lump in the good with the bad. And the bad can avoid accountability.
I believe there are meaningful differences between Canada and Korea and that these differences are measureable. Take a look at that Transparency International survey I linked to in my first post. It's a metastudy made of 18 other surveys, ranking perceptions of corruption in different countries. It ranks Canada as 12th and Korea as 47th.
TUM, do you know something all of these people dont?
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| Well they are. They are just better at hiding it [corruption]. |
By your logic, a murder is a murder. Whether its accidentally pushing someone down the stairs or methodical butchering someone and taping it for later enjoyment.
Please knock off the PC bull crap.
Last edited by Paji eh Wong on Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hack
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Well they are. They are just better at hiding it. And graft and corruption do get revealed here. Remember Korea has not been a democracy for as long as America and Canada have been. Students cheat and lie in America and Canada too. Ever been a teacher in Canada? They do that just as much there, but they are not as obvious about it. That's really the only difference. Living in the "hakwon world" is quite a bit different from living in the "real world". The former does tend to be full of liars and cheats, even more so than the latter. This can distort one's viewpoint and frequently does.
Aha, the old apologist label. "If you say anything good about Korea, you are an apologist." Guess that makes you a "whiner" then.
Have a nice day! |
Yes I taught at a community college-cheat there and you're gone and I was never asked to alter a grade for an unknown reason.
I don't live in the hakwon world, I teach at a university.
You are definitely apologizing for Korea's level of corruption by saying that Canada is just as bad. That's just plain not true-Look here.
http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.html#cpi2004
Canada #12-Korea # 47 with the higher the number, the worse the corruption.
Geez, if being concerned with the level of corruption in this country is whining, then yup, that's my label. But as I said, I accept there's nothing I can do about it other than be very skeptical of anything Koreans say. That attitude has got me thru 4 years and 3 contract renewals here. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| There's no doubt that most Koreans are gullible idiots who don't know what the hell they're doing when it comes to education, but nevertheless won't trust foreigners to take the initiative. But many of us are also at fault for putting up with so much crap and not trying to act in a more professional, dedicated, and honest manner when and where we *can*. If your employer is a joke, treat them like a joke and/or just plain quit; don't go along making money for someone scamming the most unreasonable, idiotic, and neurotic parents on earth. |
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guangho
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: a spot full of deception, stupidity, and public micturation and thus unfit for longterm residency
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course there are few places in the world where you can make US $2000 a month for playing hangman at three in the afternoon, allowing you to get p*ssed the night before, stagger home, pass out and wake up at noon to get ready for work. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: EFL Industry Korea: Why is it so corrupt? |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I can't believe someone who has been on the boards for so long doesn't know this...but here goes.
1. They don't have enough people willing to come over here. They have to take what they can get. |
Even if they could get enough qualified people willing to come over here and even if they wanted to, who is qualified in the EFL industry? At the place where I did my CELTA back home, every teacher had a CELTA, most had experience, some had DELTAs, and all were highly motivated and more professional than anywhere else I've seen. So they are qualified - but for ESL rather than EFL.
ESL means conditions and students are vastly different. These teachers had no more than 3 classes a day, each of around 15 highly motivated adult students of varied backgrounds living and operating in an English speaking country. Morale was high, resources were good, and in an English speaking country your choice of teaching materials is of course huge. Training, class observation and feedback, were standard too. If standards slipped, the British Council would soon ask questions at one of their regular inspections, potentially leading to the institute's loss of accreditation.
Now even at this place, there was one class that was considered, and I quote, 'weird'. That was a class made up of predominantly Japanese students, with some Koreans and Chinese too. To me they were among the best students I've ever taught. They were motivated and intelligent with positive attitudes, but to the other - better qualified and more experienced - teachers there they were 'weird' in that they were quirky, difficult to please, hard to communicate with, made huge numbers of errors, and just didn't seem to progress despite repeatedly going over the same language points using different books, different teachers, different materials and so on.
So who is 'qualified' to teach EFL, particularly to Asian students with whom the language and cultural barriers are so much higher? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| guangho wrote: |
| Of course there are few places in the world where you can make US $2000 a month for playing hangman at three in the afternoon, allowing you to get p*ssed the night before, stagger home, pass out and wake up at noon to get ready for work. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Exactly. There are shifty businesses in Canada for sure, but there is no way small business in Canada is so fraught with deception, contract violations, arbitrary firings, etc. The hagwon industry is corrupt in places because business in Korea has a history of being corrupt. I mean the chaebol system is a great example, when you maintain 3 different set of books, with the books only being seen by family members, it says a lot about the business climate. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:14 am Post subject: |
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So we've knocked the teachers, the owners, and the customers. We're leaving out one important group in all of this. I think Korean Immigration plays a role in how bad the EFL industry is. I'm lazy, so you're getting point form.
 Having a school own your visa, supply your housing, and pay for your airfare makes it difficult for foriegners to change from bad schools to good, and gives uncompetative schools one more opportunity to prop themselves up.
Making it nearly impossible for teachers to work part time legally means that there is a built-in market for illegal work, and a built-in market for bribes.
Being opaque in their rules and application of those rules means that a lot of people can break immigration law with out knowing, enlarging the bribe market.
Immigration standards to get an E2 visa are assinine. Why does my BA in whatever make me more qualified than a highschool graduate? Wouldn't it be better to higher an experienced educator from India or Jamaica than someone with no qualifications or experience from a G7 country? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| All over the world most people are greedy and materialist. Korea is not unique in this regard. I don't understand why people profess such outrage over it, when their home countries are just as bad. |
I am really beginning to hate this argument in all its variations.
All politicians are corrupt, so why bother holding this one accountable.
All news is spun, so why listen to the news.
All people are greedy, so why single out this one.
This argument is a cop out. By shrugging your shoulders and saying "Meh, they're all the same", you lump in the good with the bad. And the bad can avoid accountability.
I believe there are meaningful differences between Canada and Korea and that these differences are measureable. Take a look at that Transparency International survey I linked to in my first post. It's a metastudy made of 18 other surveys, ranking perceptions of corruption in different countries. It ranks Canada as 12th and Korea as 47th.
TUM, do you know something all of these people dont?
| Quote: |
| Well they are. They are just better at hiding it [corruption]. |
By your logic, a murder is a murder. Whether its accidentally pushing someone down the stairs or methodical butchering someone and taping it for later enjoyment.
Please knock off the PC bull crap. |
Please knock off the whiner crap
You have your opinion and I have mine. Corruption is corruption. Whether it is worse in one country or not it still is just as bad. By your logic if Canada excuted 10 innocent people (if it had the death penalty) and if Korea excuted 100 innocent people Korea would be worse?
Look at America. Enron, World Com and others. That is corruption on a huge scale. Is there anything comparable in Korea? Or are you just going to make unfounded statements?
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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Would you rather work in a school in any Western country for whatever pay knowing that your 22 year old mate in the ministry with some Govt agency receives the same pay, and, free housing of $5000 month, free airfares back to his/her country 3 times a year, free meat and booze from own country, free fuel, even free housekeeper, quick processing of documents, free childcare in international schools, not to mention the enormous [tax-payer funded] parties and really easy working hours with 11 weeks vacation.
So, if I receive a bit on the side I think, who gives a F%$#. I take what I can get like everybody else. It's called sacrificing your moral standards for the sake of giving your familiy a better life.
Corruption comes in many forms. My own government is corrupt as any, just that it is 'legal' corruption. Don't worry, politicians in any country look after themselves.
You are living in a dream world if you can't get over this basic hurdle. |
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