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| Would Turkey's admittance to the EU be good for the other members? |
| Yes |
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25% |
[ 5 ] |
| No, they should not be allowed to join |
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65% |
[ 13 ] |
| No, but they should still be allowed to join |
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10% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 20 |
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jinglejangle
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Location: Far far far away.
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 Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject: Turkey joining the EU |
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I'm really mostly curious about the opinions of the European posters here, but of course anyone's opinions are welcome.
(I'm gonna regret that I know)
Please DO state your nationality when you post it though. I usually read this board at 2am half drunk so I have a hard time keeping folks straight.
Thanks.
Oh, PS. Following my AIDS survey it's been suggested that I be a little less, um, provocative? asinine? I forget the exact wording, but let me clarify why I'm asking. I'm mostly curious about the feelings and arguments for and against of EU citizens. Especially regarding the question of Islam in Europe, and as I've learned you guys are good for it, I'm looking to gain insight into aspects/arguements that I haven't heard on the mainstream news or thought of myself. 40 heads and 2508 socks are better than 1 after all.
Looking forward to reading your answers. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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No.
1) Would become the largest EU country = immense power/influence.
2) Extremely large pourous border = significant other muslim (non-europeans) would come into the Union.
3) Has a serious problem with slaughtering Kurds - significantly worse than Saddam's history with Kurds. In addition, absolutely refuses to deal with its Kurd slaughtering interests - thinks its 'acceptable', and apparently the EU thinks so as well if accepts them.
My nationality is American. I realize that 99.9999% of other North Americans are 100% in favor of integration thinking its going to resolve world problems.. but after spending a year in Spain (Europe).. I am not so sure an eventual 1/2 European, 1/2 Muslim (if include the immigration that is occurring and will continue to occur particularly under an EU muslim member) is the best thing for Europe at this time or in the future. |
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| A politically unified EU would be likely to have strong humanitarian ideals, and would be a great force for reducing poverty and increasing global security. Turkey has already stated that they do not wish to be a part of any such political alliance. Their motives are purely economic. Europe doesn't need them. I'm Australian, and I think we would be a more suitable candidate for the EU than Turkey! |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'm 100% in favour of them being allowed to join for these reasons:
1. We (the West) cannot demand that Muslim countries change and become Western Liberal democracies (the Bush mantra) and then not let them into our clubs. That only feeds extremism. For example: Ask a Palestinian "What do you think of America?" Res: I hate America, can you help me get in? This is based on personal experience not an indication of the mood of al muslims. However moderate Muslims want to be a part of the west so that their children can have the oppertunities. Jobs not bombs.
2. Turkey is a young country with a moderatly skilled workforce (that would get more skilled with EU membership). Therefore EU could expand and create a new generation without some insane breeding incentives thus continuing the overpopulation of an already over populated Earth.
3. The EU prides itself on being a modern, liberal, progressive body. Modern, progressive, liberals (myself included) do not discriminate against people based on any reason, especially that of religion.
4. Turkey has undergone massive changes in order to join: making the speration of church and state very clear, ending the death penalty, rule of law, massive economic reforms, etc. They have many more to go but they are willing to make the reforms to join unlike France and Germany who break rules when they don't like them.
5. Their past history is something that needs to be addressed (the Kurds and the Armenians) however if we were to deny countries memberships in International Organizations based on their past atrocites there would not be a single country sitting in the UN.
6. Finally, The period of the EU has been the most peaceful in the history of Europe, a continent with a long history of slaughter. With that in mind, admitting Turkey my help calm and change the middle east for the better. Like Dr. Phil Im a results orientated guy and the US doctrine in the Middle East (as well as the past european adventures) have been nothing short of a full on pooch screw so this new tactic might have better results
PS I'm Canadian so in the end it doesnt really affect me |
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jinglejangle
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Location: Far far far away.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm... Tiger Beer,
I have to say I'm with you, Turkey would be a massive source of illegal immigration, and after reading a bit of the Koran I'm no longer inclined to look on Islam as the basically peace loving religion that most le=iberals claim. Actually, (and this should really draw some flame, but I'll say it anyway) I'm starting to feel that people from muslim nations should be restricted from entering the US, Canada, Europe, etc.
Not convinced yet though. I want to take some time to sit down and read the whole Koran first. Right now I'm too busy.
Octavius.
I like your points number 1 and 5 a lot. I have to say though that there is somewhat of a distinction between the old persecution of say, protestants and Jews, and the ongoing persecution of Turkish Kurds. (Not sure about the current situation with the Armenians. I think that for the most part the members of the EU have moved beyond their past atrocities, whereas I find that highly questionable with the Turks.
At any rate, do you feel that the Turks are ready now, or should they be put off and required to execute further reforms first?
One further question.
Do the Turks still occupy Cyprus? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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The Turkist Cypriots were the ones who voted in favor of Annan's proposal to unite the island but the Greeks turned it down, so the Turks on the island are looking pretty good now. Up to then it was always the Turkish side that spoiled things. I think.
Basically it comes down to the fact that Europe has a set of criteria to be considered as a nation within the union, and Turkey is likely to meet them all. Even if they do join it will be twelve years down the road.
OH, I agree with your points except the one about being secular because Turkey has actually always been fiercely secular - you can go to jail for a few years for preaching the Koran on the street without a licence for example. They recently softened that to a few months to three years as part of a process of reforming their judicial system deemed too harsh by the EU. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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The Washington Post doesn't agree though - here's an editorial from just a few days ago:
| Quote: |
'NO' TO ISLAMIST TURKEY
By Frank J. Gaffney Jr.
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On Oct. 3, representatives of the European Union and the Turkish government of Islamist Recep Erdogan will meet to determine if Muslim Turkey will be allowed to seek full membership in the EU. It will be best for Turkey, to say nothing of Europe and the West more generally, if the EU answer under present circumstances is: "Thanks, but no thanks."
The reason Europe should politely, but firmly, reject Turkey's bid should be clear: Prime Minister Erdogan is systematically turning his country from a Muslim secular democracy into an Islamofascist state governed by an ideology anathema to European values and freedoms.
Evidence of such an ominous transformation is not hard to find.
o Turkey is awash with billions of dollars in what is known as "green money," apparently emanating from funds Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf states withdrew from the United States after September 11, 2001. U.S. policymakers are concerned this unaccountable cash is laundered in Turkey, then used to finance businesses and generate new revenue streams for Islamofascist terrorism. At the very least, everything else on Mr. Erdogan's Islamist agenda is lubricated by these resources.
o Turkey's traditionally secular educational system is being steadily supplanted by madrassa-style "imam hatip" schools and other institutions where students are taught only the Koran and its interpretation according to the Islamofascists. The prime minister is himself an imam hatip school graduate and has championed lowering the age at which children can be subjected to their form of radical religious indoctrination from 12 years old to 4. And in 2005, experts expect 1,215,000 Turkish students to graduate from such schools.
o Products of such an education are ill-equipped to do much besides carrying out the Islamist program of Mr. Erdogan's AKP Party. Tens of thousands are being given government jobs: Experienced, secular bureaucrats are replaced with ideologically reliable theo-apparatchiks; 4,000 others pack secular courts, transforming them into instruments of Shari'a religious law.
o As elsewhere, religious intolerance is a hallmark of Mr.Erdogan's creeping Islamofascist putsch in Turkey. Roughly a third of the Turkish population is a minority known as Alevis. They observe a strain of Islam that retains some of the traditions of Turkey's ancient religions. Islamist Sunnis like Mr. Erdogan and his Saudi Wahhabi sponsors regard the Alevis as "apostates" and "hypocrites" and subject them to increasing discrimination and intimidation. Other minorities, notably Turkey's Jews, know they are likely next in line for such treatment ? a far cry from the tolerance of the Ottoman era.
o In the name of internationally mandated "reform" of Turkey's banking system, the government is seizing assets and operations of banks run by businessmen associated with the political opposition. It has gone so far as to defy successive rulings by Turkey's supreme court disallowing one such expropriation. The AKP-dominated parliament has enacted legislation that allows even distant relatives of the owners to be prosecuted for alleged wrongdoing. Among the beneficiaries of such shakedowns have been so-called "Islamic banks" tied to Saudi Arabia, some of whose senior officers now hold top jobs in the Erdogan government.
o Grabbing assets -- or threatening to do so -- has allowed the government effectively to take control of the Turkish media, as well. Consolidation of the industry in hands friendly to (or at least cowed by) the Islamists and self-censorship of reporters, lest they depart from the party line, have essentially denied prominent outlets to any contrary views. The risks of deviating is clear from the recently announced prosecution of Turkey's most acclaimed novelist, Orhan Parmuk, for "denigrating Turks and Turkey" by affirming in a Swiss publication allegations of past Turkish genocidal attacks on Kurds and Armenians.
o Among the consequences of Mr. Erdogan's domination of the press has been an inflaming of Turkish public opinion against President Bush in particular and the United States more generally. Today, a novel describing a war between America and Turkey leading to the nuclear destruction of Washington is a runaway best-seller, even in the Turkish military.
o This data point perhaps indicates the Islamists' progress toward also transforming the traditional guarantors of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's legacy of a secular, pro-Western Muslim state: Turkey's armed forces. Matters have been worsened by Mr. Erdogan's skillful manipulation of popular interest in the European bid to keep the military from serving as a control rod in Turkish politics.
At the very least, over time, the cumulative effect of having the conscript-based Turkish army obliged to fill its ranks with products of an increasingly Islamist-dominated educational system cannot be positive for either the Europeans or the Free World beyond. Especially as Mr. Erdogan seeks to put into effect what has been dubbed a "zero-problem" policy toward neighboring Iran and Syria, the military's historical check on the gravitational pull toward Islamofascism is likely to recede.
Consequently, the EU's representatives should not only put on ice any invitation to Turkey to join the European Union next week. They should make it clear the reason is Mr. Erdogan's Islamist takeover: The prime minister is making Turkey ineligible for membership on the grounds that the AKP program will inevitably ruin his nation's economy, radicalize its society and eliminate Ankara's ability to play Turkey's past, constructive role in the geographic "cockpit of history."
It is to be hoped this meeting will serve one other purpose, as well: It should compel the Europeans to begin to address their own burgeoning problem with Islamofascism. Both Europe, Turkey and, for that matter, the rest of the world, need to find ways to empower moderate Muslims who oppose Islamists like Turkey's Erdogan. Oct. 3 would be a good time to start.
Frank J. Gaffney Jr. is president of the Center for Security Policy and a columnist for The Washington Times. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Good points all. The Kurdish question is not just the fault of the Turks, do they discriminate, yes. The solution in my mind is to allow all Kurds living in Turkey the oppertunity to move into Kurdistan (northern Iraq) like the Jews were allowed into Israel. However no one (especially the US) will ever although so we cannot just fault the Turks. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates, nice to see an oppsoing view however the Center for Security Policy is a right-wing think tank which is very, very pro-bush, check out their website. There editorials are very biased and unbalanced so I am taking it with a grain of salt. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Turkey doesn't know what it is. It has a constant identity crisis: is it more like Europe or more like the Arab world? It is literally and figuritively stuck in the middle.
I recommend reading the novel "Snow" by a turkish author whose name is escaping me at the moment (he's the most famous turk writer in the west). It is a good reflection of Turkish society.
But anyway, I think the solution is to have free trade between the EU and Turkey. There is no reason why the EU should let in Turkey other than the fact that a small smidge of Turkey is in Europe.
That being said, I think it is really dumb and hypocritical of the EU planning to allow Romania and Bulgaria into the "club" and not Turkey. They are poorer and more backward than their Islamic neighbor. Now if the EU is open about its bias towards muslim nations and its need to emphasize cultural similarities among its members, no problem; alas, EU politicians hype cultural sensetivity (sic) and the like (basically what OH was saying in one of his points).
I'm american btw. |
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LL Moonmanhead
Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: yo momma
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
No.
1) Would become the largest EU country = immense power/influence.
2) Extremely large pourous border = significant other muslim (non-europeans) would come into the Union.
3) Has a serious problem with slaughtering Kurds - significantly worse than Saddam's history with Kurds. In addition, absolutely refuses to deal with its Kurd slaughtering interests - thinks its 'acceptable', and apparently the EU thinks so as well if accepts them.
My nationality is American. I realize that 99.9999% of other North Americans are 100% in favor of integration thinking its going to resolve world problems.. but after spending a year in Spain (Europe).. I am not so sure an eventual 1/2 European, 1/2 Muslim (if include the immigration that is occurring and will continue to occur particularly under an EU muslim member) is the best thing for Europe at this time or in the future. |
Yes.
I'm British and I still keep a baseball bat behind my front door in readiness for the 10,000 Poles who are supposed to turn up any minute and take all my money.
I've been waiting a while.
The truth is that most reaction to Turkey's intentions in the UK and in most of western Europe is led by simple xenophobia, based mainly on the colour of their skin and their religion.
Political and social analysts all agree that Turkey is at a crucial stage between either becoming a modern secular Islamic state which actually gives a s@#$ about human rights and women's emancipation, or sliding backwards and basically becoming another Iran or Syria.
Membership of the EU could bring Turkey fully into the modern world - they will be forced to vastly improve their human rights record, increase employment prospects for women and give a voice to the oppressed minorities (Kurds, Armenians). At the moment they're moaning about having to do all that, but I don't see how, if they do, it can be a bad thing.
Would we rather they ran off and joined a nice little club with Syria and Iran or developed into a modern European nation and a strong ally in the East?
All this bleating about Europe 'not being Muslim' doesn't send out a very nice message to the EU's current 12 million Muslim citizens.
In my opinion, as long as they are told in no uncertain terms that their religion means absolutely sweet FA within the EU, they recognise the rights of the Kurds and Armenians, they recognise Cyprus (how can they join a group and refuse to recognise one of its members?) and carry on improving human rights, then they should be welcome. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| LL Moonmanhead wrote: |
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
No.
1) Would become the largest EU country = immense power/influence.
2) Extremely large pourous border = significant other muslim (non-europeans) would come into the Union.
3) Has a serious problem with slaughtering Kurds - significantly worse than Saddam's history with Kurds. In addition, absolutely refuses to deal with its Kurd slaughtering interests - thinks its 'acceptable', and apparently the EU thinks so as well if accepts them.
My nationality is American. I realize that 99.9999% of other North Americans are 100% in favor of integration thinking its going to resolve world problems.. but after spending a year in Spain (Europe).. I am not so sure an eventual 1/2 European, 1/2 Muslim (if include the immigration that is occurring and will continue to occur particularly under an EU muslim member) is the best thing for Europe at this time or in the future. |
Yes.
I'm British and I still keep a baseball bat behind my front door in readiness for the 10,000 Poles who are supposed to turn up any minute and take all my money.
I've been waiting a while.
The truth is that most reaction to Turkey's intentions in the UK and in most of western Europe is led by simple xenophobia, based mainly on the colour of their skin and their religion.
Political and social analysts all agree that Turkey is at a crucial stage between either becoming a modern secular Islamic state which actually gives a s@#$ about human rights and women's emancipation, or sliding backwards and basically becoming another Iran or Syria.
Membership of the EU could bring Turkey fully into the modern world - they will be forced to vastly improve their human rights record, increase employment prospects for women and give a voice to the oppressed minorities (Kurds, Armenians). At the moment they're moaning about having to do all that, but I don't see how, if they do, it can be a bad thing.
Would we rather they ran off and joined a nice little club with Syria and Iran or developed into a modern European nation and a strong ally in the East?
All this bleating about Europe 'not being Muslim' doesn't send out a very nice message to the EU's current 12 million Muslim citizens.
In my opinion, as long as they are told in no uncertain terms that their religion means absolutely sweet FA within the EU, they recognise the rights of the Kurds and Armenians, they recognise Cyprus (how can they join a group and refuse to recognise one of its members?) and carry on improving human rights, then they should be welcome. |
Poles coming into the UK to take $? I'll assume thats not directed to my post. Not sure where that one came from as it has nothing to do with my opposition against Turkey's membership.
I don't understand how the EU has this weird sense that Europe has this innate ability/opportunity to immediately change them into a secular sexual revolution women-oriented non-killing its minority groups nation. Turkey: EU's next Ibiza. Bring in the drugs and lets party like the Europeans! The slaughtering of minorities and oppression of women will suddenly cease to exist.. next goes the drug laws and bring in gay sex!
Texas while being a part of the 'United States' doesn't automatically make it a 'little New York'.. it'll always be Texas from now until the end of time.
I thought Europeans of all people knew that its just not possible to completely change and mold different people into its own image? (Isn't that half the argument with Iraq already? - you just can't 'americanize' it anymore than Europeans can 'europeanize' an Islamic state with completely different values like Turkey.
Colonization of the past didn't work either.. Africa, India, etc.. none of those places are 'more european' from that either.. Turkey won't be either.
Now if people realize that the EU will have to have their own little 'texas/southern US' portion voting extremely conservatively on all liberal social issues.. then at least their is recognition of reality, rather than 'naaa.. they'll be pro-drug and socially liberal just like Netherlands with membership' type thinking. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Of course I am against Turkey being allowed into the EU, and the quite absurd and idealistic reasons used to support this.
Anyway, there is no need to panic, as these negotiations last for 10 years giving us plenty of time to weigh up the pros and cons and have a proper debate. I doubt there will be major changes in public opinion on this issue in France, the Netherlands and other European nations. If anything further problems with muslim immigrants will heighten antipathy towards Turkey.
As usual, the people of Europe, who are mostly opposed, have been ignored. Let's not let public opinion get in the way of the Great European Project!
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| The truth is that most reaction to Turkey's intentions in the UK and in most of western Europe is led by simple xenophobia, based mainly on the colour of their skin and their religion. |
Partly, yes, but it's mostly based on the fact that Turkey is not culturally, or even geographically part of Europe. It is also too large, and too poor. We have no guarantee that Turkey will not become more Islamist, at some point in the future, even if it is let in.
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| Political and social analysts all agree that Turkey is at a crucial stage between either becoming a modern secular Islamic state which actually gives a s@#$ about human rights and women's emancipation, or sliding backwards and basically becoming another Iran or Syria. |
If it is that fickle a nation, then I would say that is a good reason to not let them in. You are essentially saying, 'Let them in, or they'll become nasty Jihad supporting radicals!'. If they are really that prone to radical Islam, maybe we should reconsider, or give them 20 or 30 years to prove that democracy is not just a passing fad.
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| Would we rather they ran off and joined a nice little club with Syria and Iran or developed into a modern European nation and a strong ally in the East? |
That's speculation. Why can't they develop into a friendly peaceful nation, whilst being outside the EU? Seems to work for Norway.
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| All this bleating about Europe 'not being Muslim' doesn't send out a very nice message to the EU's current 12 million Muslim citizens. |
Sorry to break this to you, but Europe is not muslim, at least not yet. Anyway, who cares what messages it sends out? They chose to immigrate to Europe knowing full well that it was a part of the West with a Christian heritage, and now we have to forget our identity and totally redefine Europe just so muslims don't get upset? By not allowing Turkey into the EU we are clearly saying that Europe has boundaries and a common culture and heritage that unites us. If they cannot accept this, then maybe they should consider living in a muslim state.
What exactly is Europe? If Turkey, which has tenuous claims to being European is let in, they why not Morocco, Algeria, or any other North African states? They are just as close to Europe as Turkey.
I don't know about you, but I don't fancy the idea of our laws being framed by nations in which their is large support for Sharia. Can we totally rule out the possibility that in 50-100 year time, there will be a muslim majority in Europe, and that they will vote in favour of Sharia. Muslims make up a tiny percentage of Europe now, but they still demand concessions and demonstrate an unwillingness to integrate. If Turkey enters, they will make up 20% of the EU population and that will increase. They will demand more and more concessions for their beloved Islam.
The only criteria for allowing Turkey into the EU is whether it is in the interests of Europe and whether the people of Europe are for it. On both of these counts, it fails.
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| Turkey doesn't know what it is. It has a constant identity crisis |
This is spot on, and until it has sorted out what it wants to be, I'd rather not play rush and roulette with the future of Europe. Moreover, people seem to be assuming that the EU will have some magical affect on the Arab world, Westernising and democratising it. They don't even consider the other possibility, that the entrance of Turkey, and millions of illegals from Arab countries may Islamicise us. From the evidence in Bradford, Marseille, Malmo and Rotterdam, muslim immigrants do not integrate, they colonise, and we should not be doing anything to speed up this process.
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| Now if the EU is open about its bias towards muslim nations and its need to emphasize cultural similarities among its members, no problem |
Exactly. I have no problem with muslim countries emphasizing their values and identity, so why don't we? Time to drop the political correctness.
It's time Europe developed some backbone, stopped caring obout hurting muslims feelings (as if they care about ours!) and stood up for its values and identity.
Last edited by bigverne on Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ed4444
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: |
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I am Irish and I think that Turkey should be allowed into the EU eventually.
I think a set of reforms on a 7 - 10 year timescale should be outlined. then if they meet their targets they can get in.
I am not worried about mass immigration. We have seen immigration from the new EU states (in Ireland, there are Polish everywhere now) but they are not a drain on our social system at all. We need the workers.
The only thing I would worry about is that more individuals with fundamentalist leanings could get into western europe.
After saying that I think the key to stopping fundamentalism is not keeping them out in the first place. Our countries need to look at what is driving these people to think that this approach is needed. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| We have seen immigration from the new EU states (in Ireland, there are Polish everywhere now) but they are not a drain on our social system at all. |
The Polish have been a great benefit to the UK also. They are everywhere! However, we should recognise that (besides language) there are few cultural differences between Poland and Western European countries, especially Ireland as they are both Catholic countries. They are far less likely to form ghettoes, reject Western norms, and will integrate and intermarry with little problem. This is not the case with many Turks, especially those from rural areas.
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| The only thing I would worry about is that more individuals with fundamentalist leanings could get into western europe. |
There's a simple solution to that problem.....don't let them in!
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| We need the workers. |
We do, but we can afford to be picky about where they are from, and whether the will integrate into our societies. We have culturally more in common with North and South America, and indeed some parts of Africa, and if we need more workers we could encourage Brazilians, Argentinians, or Ghanains to work here.
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| Our countries need to look at what is driving these people |
It's called Islam, and letting them into Europe will not stop their attachment to the teachings of the prophet, which by the way, say little about freedom of speech and democracy. |
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