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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject: A Breath of Fresh Korean Air |
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This is an editorial from the Chosun Ilbo. I found it today, but I think it was printed a few days ago. Anyway, it points at some of the weird thinking of the governing party. It's too bad there isn't more of it--criticizing, that is.
Damned If They Did, Damned If They Didn't
A ruling-party lawmaker, Kim Won-wung, last week asserted that all the nation's misfortune was planted in a secret 1905 agreement between the U.S. and Japan, the so-called Taft-Katsura Agreement, in which Washington acknowledged Japan's colonial control of Korea. "We have to protest to the U.S. against this secret agreement, which was a serious criminal act under international law, and demand an apology for it," the lawmaker demanded during a parliamentary audit of our embassy in Washington. "We must seek a redress of past wrongs in Korea-U.S. relations."
In the secret accord, signed in Tokyo in 1905, the U.S. and Japan acknowledged the latter's control of the Korean Peninsula and the former's control of the Philippines. Korea was at the time already in Japanese hands as a result of Japanese victories in wars with both Russia and China. Calling for the U.S. to be held to account for the agreement is tantamount to asserting that it should have intervened on the Korean Peninsula even if that meant risking a war with Japan. By the same token, one might contend that any colonies should demand a redress of injustices not merely from their former colonial master but from any country that acknowledged their control. That logic is not going to wash in the international community.
It is not difficult to find voices in and around the ruling camp that will portray the Taft-Katsura agreement as the source of all our ills. Some even argue that the nation's division into North and South can be traced back to the accord. A group of legislators from both the ruling and opposition parties that included Kim in July submitted a draft resolution to the National Assembly calling for a formal repeal of the Taft-Katsura Agreement and for apologies from Washington and Tokyo.
But the purveyors of this historical view also grumble about the U.S. intervention in the Korean War and want to topple a statue of U.S. general Douglas MacArthur in Incheon. It must be based on such views that Rep. Kim alone did not go along with the other lawmakers when they paid their respects at the Korean War memorial after the audit in Washington. |
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desultude

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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The Chosun Ilbo is a conservative newspaper that oft takes on the ruling party.
Instead of saying the view cited is strange, how about a substantive criticism of the content. Do you know this to not be true? What are your sources? I am not arguing either way, I am simple saying that to call an opinion strange requires some evidence. I don't see any. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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A few points:
1. It's debatable how much influence this editorial will have among people not already commited to the viewpoint. The Chosun Ilbo is regarded in nationalist circles as having been a pro-Japanese collaborationist newspaper, so most of those people will probably just say: "well what do you expect from guys like that?"
2. It's also debatable how much influence Kim Won-wung's comments will have on actual policy. Like, Noh Moo Hyun on his next trip to Washington is gonna say "hey, I wanna talk about getting compensation for the Taft-Katsura agreement of 1905". Well, I suppose he COULD say that, if only to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt how much the outside world is indifferent to Korea's nationalist psychodrama.
I suspect that both Kim's remarks and the Ilbo's editorial were intended simply for consumption by their respective fan clubs. Can't see much resulting from this either way. |
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desultude

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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On the other hand wrote: |
A few points:
1. It's debatable how much influence this editorial will have among people not already commited to the viewpoint. The Chosun Ilbo is regarded in nationalist circles as having been a pro-Japanese collaborationist newspaper, so most of those people will probably just say: "well what do you expect from guys like that?"
2. It's also debatable how much influence Kim Won-wung's comments will have on actual policy. Like, Noh Moo Hyun on his next trip to Washington is gonna say "hey, I wanna talk about getting compensation for the Taft-Katsura agreement of 1905". Well, I suppose he COULD say that, if only to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt how much the outside world is indifferent to Korea's nationalist psychodrama.
I suspect that both Kim's remarks and the Ilbo's editorial were intended simply for consumption by their respective fan clubs. Can't see much resulting from this either way. |
Ah, yes, an informed and articulate response. Thank you! |
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EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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The several histories of Korea I have read all support the essential argument of the lawmaker.
Here's a nice synopsis, which also mirrors my previous readings on the subject. In fact, I have read nothing so far that would contradict the basic premise of the lawmaker's remarks.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2460/korea.html
And this may explain the first tangible beginning of the process of Japan's rule of Korea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Japanese_War_%281894-1895%29
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First Sino-Japanese War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895))
Japan and Qing China fought the First Sino–Japanese War (or the Qing-Japanese War or Sino-Japanese War (1894–1895)), primarily over control of Korea. To distinguish it from the Sino-Japanese War (1937–1945), this war is called the Jiǎwǔ War (ˣ��战争) in Chinese because it occurred in the Chinese year of that name. The Japanese refer to this conflict as the Japan-Qing War (��清戦争, Nisshin sénsou).
Genesis of the war
Korea (under the Joseon Dynasty) had traditionally been a tributary state of the Qing dynasty. In 1875 Qing had allowed Japan to recognise Korea as an independent state. However, Qing continued to try to assert its influence over Korea and public opinion in Korea split, with conservatives wanting to retain a close relationship with Qing while reformists wanted Korea to modernize and to have a closer relationship with Japan.
Following the assassination of a pro-Japanese reformist in 1894, a Korean religious sect, the Donghak, began the Donghak Peasant Revolution. The Korean government requested help from Qing in suppressing it. The Qing Dynasty informed the Japanese government of its decision to send troops to the Korean peninsula in accordance with (clause c) of the Sino-Japanese Convention of Tientsin of 1885 in which the two sides agreed to: (a) pull their expeditionary forces out of Korea simultaneously; (b) not send military instructors for the training of the Korean army; and (c) notify the other side beforehand should one decide to send troops to Korea. Implicit in this arrangement to Japanese eyes was that any troops so deployed were to be withdrawn as soon as possible (a logical corollary to clause b).
Early stage of the war
In early 1894, Yuan Shikai, a plenipotentiary from the Qing entered Korea with a sizable body of troops upon the request of the Emperor of Korea to suppress a rebellion. For its part, Japan was ready to pounce upon any suitable opportunity for invasion. When Yuan Shikai retained troops at the request of Korean royalty, the Japanese government sent an expedition about three times the size of the Chinese Army in support of the reformists and subsequently seized the Emperor and the Royal Palace in Seoul by June, 1894. In an effort to increase its influence on the Korean peninsula, the Japanese government established a new Korean government and proposed a project for reform of the Korean governmental system. This was rejected by the Qing, who still regarded Korea as a dependent country. The new Korean government then granted Japanese Army the right to expel Chinese troops. |
And the British had a hand:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Japanese_treaty
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Anglo-Japanese Alliance
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from Anglo-Japanese treaty)
The first Anglo-Japanese Alliance was signed in London on January 30, 1902 by Lord Lansdowne (British foreign secretary) and Hayashi Tadasu (Japanese minister in London). The alliance was renewed and extended in scope twice, in 1905 and 1911 before its demise in 1921. Briefly, the benefit to Britain was the establishment of an ally in East Asia who could help contain Russia and protect British commercial interests in China. It helped Britain's navy by providing coaling stations and repair facilities. For Japan, it was a necessary step in achieving further recognition as a Power (if not a Great Power) and gave her the confidence to challenge Russia's occupation of Manchuria and designs on Korea. The Russo-Japanese War (1904-05) broke out about two years later in February 1904.
The alliance was renewed and strengthened in 1905 and 1911, but declined during World War One and finally expired in 1921, much to the regret of Sir Charles Eliot, and the pleasure of the United States and China. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Instead of saying the view cited is strange, how about a substantive criticism of the content. Do you know this to not be true? What are your sources? I am not arguing either way, I am simple saying that to call an opinion strange requires some evidence. I don't see any.
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A value judgement, like 'strange' or the word I actually used, 'weird', does not require evidence. A value judgement is a value judgement. I sometimes post articles with my thoughts and sometimes I post them unadorned. Until I see some evidence that you have been appointed den mother of the board I will continue to post as I see fit. |
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desultude

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Quote: |
Instead of saying the view cited is strange, how about a substantive criticism of the content. Do you know this to not be true? What are your sources? I am not arguing either way, I am simple saying that to call an opinion strange requires some evidence. I don't see any.
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A value judgement, like 'strange' or the word I actually used, 'weird', does not require evidence. A value judgement is a value judgement. I sometimes post articles with my thoughts and sometimes I post them unadorned. Until I see some evidence that you have been appointed den mother of the board I will continue to post as I see fit. |
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Anyway, it points at some of the weird thinking of the governing party. |
Yes, this is an opinion. A lot of people opine here often. But they usually say why they think it is weird.
Your OP did not invite a discussion about anything in particular. I was suggesting that you might want to actually give an opinion, rather than a one word value judgement.
I like chocolate ice cream. Not much to start a thread with.
Fortunately, on the other hand and Efltrainer have actually provided some grist for discussion. Your response is to attack me. Mmmm, who should we be taking seriously? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:02 am Post subject: |
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and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded |
I'm sorry. Could you say that again, a little louder. I'm having trouble hearing what you said. |
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desultude

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:43 am Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded |
I'm sorry. Could you say that again, a little louder. I'm having trouble hearing what you said. |
I'm actually very tolerant of ideas- besides labeling what someone said as being "wierd", I have not seen anything in your post that looks like an actual idea. As for behavior- I have been patiently asking for you to initiate a discussion with your posting- no baiting, no name calling, or accusations, just a request.
Anyway, we are off topic- so, please, what was the topic? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:51 am Post subject: |
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The dichotomy between the Taft-Katsura agreement and the US' support of South Korea against North Korean aggression is particularly effective in showing just how unhinged and unconditional some of the nationalist resentment in Korea nowadays can be.
Obviously, the Taft-Katsura agreement is not America's moral highpoint, but it should be acknowledged that it was signed as part of the deliberations on the Treaty of Portsmouth that ended the Russo-Japanese War. |
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