Korean Job Discussion Forums

[bigverne]

So, you think Chechnya should be in the EU. Good call.

[mithridates]

Oh shut up. I never said anything about Russia. I don't even disagree with a lot of what you say about Turkey and you respond with a petty retort like that. Comments like that give me doubts that you are as serious about the subject as you claim.

[ed4444]

I travelled around Turkey for a month a few years ago. Not a long enough time to get a really deep insight but it was enough to get a flavour.

A lot of the non resort fishing towns and cities on the west coast have a very european feel to them. I think the vast majority of Turkish people are moderate muslims.

Also I have spent time with the Turkish community in Germany with some Turkish friends of mine. They have integrated reasonably well into German society. There are plenty of interracial relationships there too. I think they would get on alright in most countries of Europe.

I do take the point that Turkey is not really a part of Europe though. Geographically it is accepted that the Bospherus is the dividing line between Europe and Asia and I think that only leaves about 7% of Turkey's landmass in Europe.

[bigverne]

[ed4444]

[quote="bigverne"]

[mithridates]

1)Those are not countries.
2)I said *ideally* I would like to see it stretch that far.

Do you need some more help with understanding what I wrote? Making up things to score points on a message board is all well and good but I'm not your zinger buddy and I ignore posters who don't seem to grasp the topic at hand.

Now: do you think that some of the reasons for wanting Turkey in have to do with increased influence in Central Asia?

[Tiger Beer]

[bigverne]

It is still unlikely that they will be let in. France and Austria will have referendums about Turkish entry and will likely reject them, and since Turkey's entrance requires agreement amongst all member states, it's not going to happen.

[bucheon bum]

[Bulsajo]

Pretty sure the blame will fall on this guy:

[jinglejangle]

[jinglejangle]

Mith, I love the pop/GDP graph.
Luxembourg really has it going on.
I was also really suprised by Italy's strong showing GDP wise.

That said, I think that you are the first person I have ever heard refer to the Caucasian states as part of Europe.

On to one of your actual arguements, I think that strategically the Europeans don't have much to gain from Turkey.

They are strategically positioned if you target is Iraq or Iran, true, but Iraq is pretty much a US intrest and not much or a European one, and if Europe decided to go for a war with Iran I think they would find some of the old English colonies somewhat accomodating. I don't think they will anyway.

Turkey's primary strategic value since WWII has been against Russia. First because it has a long and very difficult to assail border with Russia, and second (and more importantly) because he who controls the Bophsorus Straits can bottle up the Russian Black Sea Fleet and (assuming he also controls the straits between Denmark and Upper Scandinavia, as the EU does) can effectively block all of Russias winter ports on the atlantic with little trouble. These two factors mean that if Europe can control Turkey, naval superiority over Russia in the Atlantic is virtually assured in a conflict of any duration. Russias ports north of the Baltic ice up early and become unsuitable for large scale naval ops.

But the thing about that is that the Turks pathologically hate the Russians any way, or at least they use to, and as long as good relations with Turkey are maintained it is likely that the EU will recieve this strategic benefit either way. Here bear in mind also that Turkey is still a member in good standing of NATO as well. (again, correct me if I'm out of date)

As far as military intel goes the same applies. As long as the EU is friendly with the Turks they can easily recruit Turkish intel operatives irregardless of membership. Not to mention the very large numbers of Turks living abroad in the EU, Canada, and the US.

Finally, if the EU did want military positioning in Central Asia, and I seriously doubt that that is a priority for them, the smaller Caucasion
states would more than suffice as staging grounds for any brush wars that the EU might become involved in.

But, I think it is a mistake to view EU policy as being as militarily inclined as I am describing here. So far, the EU as a whole has prefered to remain pacifistic, and I really don't suspect that they are jockeying for position Militarily so strongly as for that to be a deciding factor in their consideration of Turkish membership.
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I think you are dead on about the primary reason for oppostion being the Islamic issue, but what so far escapes me is any good reason for the EU to WANT Turkey.

As i just said, I don't believe that it is militarily all that crucial, and economically it seems to make no sense at all, so that outside of simply a liberal agenda of diversification for it's own sake, and a Muslim lobby within the EU, the fact that Turkey has any support at all is pretty suprising to me.

PS. I never would have thought about these things if you and some of the other posters hadn't brought it up. This has been far and away my most satisfying (not to mention successful) thread on Daves. Thanks to all for helping me to clarify and formulate my thinking on this issue.

Looking forward to the rest of the arguement.

[Kuros]

[bigverne]

Like China's brief fling with Communism, Turkey's affair with Western secularism may be a temporary affair before it returns to its Islamic roots.

[ed4444]