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Bringin It On
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Rock



Joined: 25 Feb 2005

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:44 pm    Post subject: Bringin It On Reply with quote

I didn't want to say anything, but I just wanted to bring it on. You see, I'm sitting at home about. . .as far away as this board from sense. . .across the river and through the woods. . .to Korea again I may go. But then I see the big bad wolf of the past, and the faces, and the kids, and the alienation and. . .

You want to feel as if it's leading somewhere other than this, this sojourn to and in Korea. . .some people turning to the left. . .others, finding the right. . .still more, leaning on the fairytale existence of it all, thinking there's an end. Or is it a job at a supermarket back home, at best?

Some claim they're demeaned lawyers over there in Asia, others, the Great Teacher's, MA's hanging from their hips. And others, wiling away their days until they finally land their big one back home, somehow thinking this is just beneath them. Still there are more, and more of us, me, looking through the possiblilites of ekking out a few reasons as to the outcome of this all, of being there.

Bring it on, then, you who want to say and think you may have an excuse to your sojourn, and return, and in so saying there might not but be anything except a ticket back home to guide you buy, just like the ticket there.
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Demonicat



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Location: Suwon

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

huh, was that a exerpt from Joyce?
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skinhead



Joined: 11 Jun 2004

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rock, I know you're fishing for something, I just don't know what it is....
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eamo



Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demonicat wrote:
huh, was that a exerpt from Joyce?


Might be an excerpt from something Joyce wrote when he was 15 and full of teenage BS....

...please. Don't insult a great writer by comparing him to Rock's hopeless muck.
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Rock



Joined: 25 Feb 2005

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To refute Eamo, I'd like to ask if WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW YOU'RE LOSING BY WASTING YOUR TIME IN ASIA, namely this being your future, career, social opportunity, and lack of recognition and identity, when and if you do return home, has ever crossed your mind?

Are you in the same frame of mind as me, thinking, "I'm just throwing my life away" being in Asia?

"Teenage muck" is exactly what a person endures when they feel the adult-hood the litany above presents and vies with Jame's Joyce's feeling, "You Can Never Return/Go Home(Again.)"
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Bulsajo



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bro, it's not the destination but how you get there, yadda yadda yadda.
I thought all poets knew that.
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Mod Team


Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always thought it's kinda fun throwing myself into a completely different culture. Having the opportunity to work at the same time is a *bonus.*
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Pangit



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Location: Puet mo.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could Korea be better than where you're coming from, given that you'd even contemplate coming here? That's a possibility. Of course it is. Why would it be so bad if it is? Shed the negativity, don't project the meanness of your situation onto the options you have and make a clear decision. We're not here to make the choice for you. You don't have to compare yourself to others. Learn some self-trust.
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Rock



Joined: 25 Feb 2005

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pangit wrote:
Could Korea be better than where you're coming from, given that you'd even contemplate coming here? That's a possibility. Of course it is. Why would it be so bad if it is? Shed the negativity, don't project the meanness of your situation onto the options you have and make a clear decision. We're not here to make the choice for you. You don't have to compare yourself to others. Learn some self-trust.


This gave me some insight, especially "...don't project the meanness of you situation. . .make a clear decision." The struggle is not necessarily within though. It's dealing with all the cirumstances, and people, both of which might point otherwise, or else.

Seems very few understand this overseas business might be a future, for the future, in itself. But the practicality of one's culture is what I'm talking about, the slave mentality that, since you didn't work your way up from the bottom here, back home, you're just wasting your time overseas. Then you come home, and low and behold, they want you to start at the bottom, since you don't have any experience, per se, according to these Western standards.

It can be unnerving.
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Bulsajo



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Rock] But the practicality of one's culture is what I'm talking about, the slave mentality that, since you didn't work your way up from the bottom here, back home, you're just wasting your time overseas. Then you come home, and low and behold, they want you to start at the bottom, since you don't have any experience, per se, according to these Western standards.
[/quote]
If you believe those standards then you'll probably be held to them.
You think it's not up to you, but it is.
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Gorgias



Joined: 27 Aug 2005

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of us have forgot about "making a living." Many younger folks have been fed so full of high dreams and aspirations that we sometimes forget that some people, myself included, just want to make a living. I don't want to be a Doctor, a Lawyer, or an Indian Chief; or what ever highfalutin dream one might have latched onto. If working in a super market pays the bills, keeps you fed and pays the child support, then great. If teaching in Korea is how you're gonna make a living, super; don't make a simpleton's life seem like some big ol' drama of opportunity and possibilities. Your options are pretty limited, and your goals are not far beyond just having a roof over y'r head. Or maybe I'm the only one who won't be driving a BMW to a posh office in Paris next year.
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VanIslander



Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Bringin It On Reply with quote

Demonicat wrote:
huh, was that a exerpt from Joyce?

Demonicat, I don't think the original post is from James Joyce. But perhaps other literature. Let me translate:

Rock wrote:
I didn't want to say anything, but I just wanted to bring it on. You see, I'm sitting at home about. . .as far away as this board from sense. . .across the river and through the woods. . .

= "I just read Thoreau."

Rock wrote:
...to Korea again I may go. But then I see the big bad wolf of the past,

= "I've read 'Little Red Riding Hood' too many times."

Rock wrote:
...and the faces, and the kids, and the alienation and. . .

= "I've read a lot of Hemingway."

Rock wrote:
You want to feel as if it's leading somewhere other than this, this sojourn to and in Korea. . .some people turning to the left. . .others, finding the right. . .still more, leaning on the fairytale existence of it all, thinking there's an end.

= "I never did understand Heidegger."

Rock wrote:
Some claim they're demeaned lawyers over there in Asia, others, the Great Teacher's, MA's hanging from their hips.

= "I understood 'The Emperor's New Clothes'."

Rock wrote:
And others, wiling away their days until they finally land their big one back home, somehow thinking this is just beneath them. Still there are more, and more of us, me, looking through the possiblilites...

= "I read Dave's ESL Cafe."

Rock wrote:
...of ekking out...

= "I don't read dictionaries."

Rock wrote:
...a few reasons as to the outcome of this all, of being there.

= "I don't like grammar books either."

Rock wrote:
Bring it on, then, you who want to say and think you may have an excuse to your sojourn, and return, and in so saying there might not but be anything except a ticket back home to guide you buy, just like the ticket there.

= "I liked 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'."
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Pangit



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Location: Puet mo.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Bringin It On Reply with quote

Most lately, you said

Rock wrote:
The struggle is not necessarily within though. It's dealing with all the cirumstances, and people, both of which might point otherwise, or else.


I'm going to argue this point. I can only go with what you've given me so far, so I'm going to go back to your text.

This is where I think you start the comparison between yourself and others.

Rock wrote:
. . .to Korea again I may go. But then I see the big bad wolf of the past, and the faces, and the kids, and the alienation and. . .

You want to feel as if it's leading somewhere other than this, this sojourn to and in Korea. . .some people turning to the left. . .others, finding the right. . .still more, leaning on the fairytale existence of it all, thinking there's an end. Or is it a job at a supermarket back home, at best?

Some claim they're demeaned lawyers over there in Asia, others, the Great Teacher's, MA's hanging from their hips. And others, wiling away their days until they finally land their big one back home, somehow thinking this is just beneath them.


Yes, you start off telling us about your fears and then make a leap, changing the subject of these negative feelings, projecting it onto the reader and yet you try to distance yourself by blurring the distinction between self and other by saying "Some claim [this or that]." The truth remains though, that it springs from your own fear.

Now you return the focus to yourself.

Rock wrote:
Still there are more, and more of us, me, looking through the possiblilites of ekking out a few reasons as to the outcome of this all, of being there.


Yes, that's the question. What is your goal? Look only at yourself and know what you want. We can't tell you what you want.

This is where you invite us to make the decision for you, and tell you what you want:

Rock wrote:
Bring it on, then, you who want to say and think you may have an excuse to your sojourn, and return, and in so saying there might not but be anything except a ticket back home to guide you buy, just like the ticket there.


I must say that it is up to you to affirm this internal struggle. You almost do so by telling us:

Rock wrote:
But the practicality of one's culture is what I'm talking about, the slave mentality that, since you didn't work your way up from the bottom here, back home, you're just wasting your time overseas. Then you come home, and low and behold, they want you to start at the bottom, since you don't have any experience, per se, according to these Western standards.

It can be unnerving.


Forgive my temerity, but I'm hoping to provide further insight:

You own that slave mentality. It is yours to let go or keep as you decide what to do with it. If you free yourself of that burden, then you can do what you want to attain happiness on your own terms. Or you can remain shackled to it. Not necessarily, though, as you can achieve a lot by following its rules, even freedom by working yourself up the system.

This is a suggestion of how to go about succeeding in ESL (because this is the obvious reason to take a job here): get the MATESOL, go further, go upward, stop looking down. Do that by working overseas (yes, possibly here, because the opportunities are good for people pursuing experience and monetary compensation at the same time). Get in the field, accrue relevant work experience that definitely won't be discounted because it is ESL work, no matter what they tell you. Earn some money so that you can pay for further education, go back out in the field and use your new education to get the better job with the better pay to earn money to buy yourself out of the cycle. That's how the "slave mentality" works. You have to buy your freedom. In this case, that's just the real world, not a "slave mentality," and just how everyone goes about attaining freedom.
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Rock



Joined: 25 Feb 2005

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to go with what Gorgias said. Thanks Gorgias, I think this applies.

About the "slave mentality" I talked about, I meant the droves of people with dour looks who are expected to be where they're at in life, because those before them(the successful ones,) have succeeded the same way(by hard, grueling labor, ie., menial labor)and this is the only solution. Don't you feel as if you're bucking the system then, in a sense?

I'm not saying menial labor is all I've got, although I look at "the successful ones" and jobs that would require me to be just as financially successful and find the pay just won't pan out for a good time to come yet, unless I slave my way through life. You have to have work experience back home in order to work your way up, so this is what I meant by "wasting your future."

But I'm not asking for anyone to decide for me to stay, or come to Korea either. One thing you have to know is that many an opportunity exists back in your homeland, and your options are unlimited. But I'm pinpointing the practical aspects of life verses the idealistic. Is it that people back home just don't realize this, or people living abroad?

More to be said.
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Pangit



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Location: Puet mo.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rock wrote:
I have to go with what Gorgias said. Thanks Gorgias, I think this applies.

About the "slave mentality" I talked about, I meant the droves of people with dour looks who are expected to be where they're at in life, because those before them(the successful ones,) have succeeded the same way(by hard, grueling labor, ie., menial labor)and this is the only solution. Don't you feel as if you're bucking the system then, in a sense?

I'm not saying menial labor is all I've got, although I look at "the successful ones" and jobs that would require me to be just as financially successful and find the pay just won't pan out for a good time to come yet, unless I slave my way through life. You have to have work experience back home in order to work your way up, so this is what I meant by "wasting your future."

But I'm not asking for anyone to decide for me to stay, or come to Korea either. One thing you have to know is that many an opportunity exists back in your homeland, and your options are unlimited. But I'm pinpointing the practical aspects of life verses the idealistic. Is it that people back home just don't realize this, or people living abroad?

More to be said.


Sorry, I glossed over Gorgias' post because I was focussing on what you had to say rather than paying attention to what a good deal of the other posts weren't contributing to the discussion. Bulsajo, Gorgias and I are essentially saying similar things - namely, stop comparing yourself to others.

I'm going to pick up on the unlimited options at home this time. What, exactly, are your options? How are you qualified for everything available at home? How are you going to use the experience that you build at home, and how is it going to help you in the future?

I don't think working here in Korea as an ESL teacher is menial labour, per se, because you can use it as experience to make a career out of. It's up to you to either see teaching ESL as a viable career (valuable work experience), or as a temporary position between flipping burgers and waiting tables (menial labour). As to teaching ESL as a viable career, the options back home actually are limited because of the saturation of ESL teachers with experience and the bare mimimum requirements and the lack of demand for qualified personnel (lots of people have linguistics degrees coupled with ESL certification in one form or another, for example). There are more opportunities abroad because more people want to learn English abroad. So, if you want to make a career out of ESL, then you pretty much have to leave your country so that you can get related experience and make money to finance further education (and Korea is a good place to get some coin) and then make yourself even better employable in your home country - if you want to stay in your home country. Once again, though, I'm of the opinion that there are better opportunities abroad for the ESL career. What will you do otherwise? Most of the well-paying options in ESL at home require a lot of experience and a lot of education. You can't really volunteer because you have to eat and you have to save for tuition if you don't have the education necessary to get the better jobs back home. Being abroad makes sense if you want to pursue this career track.

What you have to understand are the realities of your career choice. When you talk about "bucking the system," I'm uncertain what you mean as I'm unfamiliar with that phrase, and I can't quite infer what you mean, either. Is it that you're just seeing the ESL teachers here as individuals who are not working to further a career in ESL? Whatever the case may be for the teachers here, I'm sure they are satisfied having made the decision to do what they do and I hope they have a plan in mind for their future. If they're not happy, then they can find happiness elsewhere - I'll agree with you, though, that the pursuing happiness in this manner (flipping burgers half a year, hitting a fly-by-night hagwon another half, moving on to whatever else repetetively) tends to fleeting rewards. You'll get better returns by working at finding the quality of happiness that you want. Following a career path can be quite rewarding and could lead to more lasting happiness.

Another thing to consider is that if you see this as slaving away, then it's definitely not for you. Don't talk about the ones with "dour looks," the "successful ones," or any other people. You have to know how you, yourself, will feel about your career choice. It actually can be gratifying to work in ESL. Check with yourself to see if you can be happy doing it. Think about long term goals.
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