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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Location: Uranus
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject: When is it OK to shoot illegal immigrants? |
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I'm sure that sounds alarming to you, perhaps pushing the envelope a bit too much but recent events in Spain make me want to seek assistance or confirmation of my dark thoughts. The idea is extreme I admit, but is it really?
I've been informed that fighting off occupiers is cool and understandable example USA in Iraq but what if they are civilian occupiers. I'll put it this way... a 100,000 man army is poised at a border. There seems to be a right to meet that with force. What if that 100,000 man army is civilian force stating they want to "work"? What then?
I counter your arguments about that work quote before we start so don't spend time on that. I hear that in the US, when Mexicans show up and its its a bluff that hides behind morality. After showing up for work, the workers bring families, lobby for more education money, government services and government representation. It ain't work although the work explaination adds some kind of credibility and palatabiltiy. Its about profit maximization, there are jobs and work available in Mexico but they don't pay well.
I'm sure the soldiers in Italy, Malta and Spain want to get their guns out. |
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Pligganease

Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Location: The deep south...
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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It is perfectly OK to shoot illegal immigrants.
You get bonus points for hitting them in the back as they are running back to the border. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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"If they run, they're illegal immigrants. If they stand still, they're well-disciplined illegal immigrants." |
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Wangja

Joined: 17 May 2004 Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Or, as here, on the way to the airport.
Bonus points for getting AFTER they've cleared immigration, as then they are officially not here.
Be sure to remove degrees, real or imagined, and other ID so that the corpse cannot become a burden on the taxpayers of a home country. |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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No, it's not OK. Mace maybe but not murder
Problem in the US & Canada is the lack of political will. Lots of the people working border patrol feel just as frustrated as many of these nations' citizens.
10,000 illegals coming across the border into the US from Mexico ... EVERY DAY !
Why are the fat-cat politicans turning a blind eye? One key reason is that bringing in 3rd world labourers helps to remain competitive with India & China.
Picture a level playing field  |
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mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: When is it OK to shoot illegal immigrants? |
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dulouz wrote: |
I'm sure that sounds alarming to you, perhaps pushing the envelope a bit too much but recent events in Spain make me want to seek assistance or confirmation of my dark thoughts. The idea is extreme I admit, but is it really?
I've been informed that fighting off occupiers is cool and understandable example USA in Iraq but what if they are civilian occupiers. I'll put it this way... a 100,000 man army is poised at a border. There seems to be a right to meet that with force. What if that 100,000 man army is civilian force stating they want to "work"? What then?
I counter your arguments about that work quote before we start so don't spend time on that. I hear that in the US, when Mexicans show up and its its a bluff that hides behind morality. After showing up for work, the workers bring families, lobby for more education money, government services and government representation. It ain't work although the work explaination adds some kind of credibility and palatabiltiy. Its about profit maximization, there are jobs and work available in Mexico but they don't pay well.
I'm sure the soldiers in Italy, Malta and Spain want to get their guns out. |
You're certainly pushing no envelope but you are confusing yourself. They're illegal so they're kind of like an enemy so it's kind of like a war so something has to be done and I guess I'm kind of like a soldier cause maybe I can do something about this and yes that's right I guess I'm a soldier and this is my war
That's not pushing any envelope at all, it's a very simple and oft-used train of thought. Let me simplify the question for you:
When is it OK to shoot illegal immigrants? ----> When is it okay for me to kill other people?
Start from there. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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mithridates wrote: |
When is it OK to shoot illegal immigrants? ----> When is it okay for me to kill other people?
Start from there. |
It's different for you (justifiable homocide and wrongful death) and govt agents or police forces (use of deadly force policies). Police may shoot fleeing felons, for example, and civilians may not ever do this under any circumstances (at least outside of Texas, as far as I know).
It's still not all right to shoot illegal immigrants under most circumstances, civilian or govt. There's no imminent threat to life. |
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Pligganease

Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Location: The deep south...
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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:24 am Post subject: Re: When is it OK to shoot illegal immigrants? |
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mithridates wrote: |
When is it OK to shoot illegal immigrants? ----> When is it okay for me to kill other people?
Start from there. |
I have often had conversations with people regarding politics and beliefs while here in Korea. It seems that as soon as you mention to poeple that you are an American they immediately ask you an assload of political questions before they are able to talk to you like a normal person...
Once, I had a discussion with a few Brits. We were discussing home invasion/ B&E and the laws in the States that say you can shoot someone who has broken into your house.
They were absolutely appalled that I said you should shoot someone for breaking into your house. After I realized they were appalled at that, I went a step further and told them that you should shoot people for walking through your yard and drag them into the house to avoid prosecution, since I realized that is what they wanted to hear.
Maybe it's just me, and millions of my countrymen, but I just don't understand how anyone could say that it isn't acceptable to shoot someone in defense of your family and home. |
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Wangja

Joined: 17 May 2004 Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Maybe it's just me, and millions of my countrymen, but I just don't understand how anyone could say that it isn't acceptable to shoot someone in defense of your family and home. |
Maybe it's just me, and millions in Europe and elsewhere, but perhaps it's becuase civilised countries do not permit firearms. |
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Pligganease

Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Location: The deep south...
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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Wangja wrote: |
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Maybe it's just me, and millions of my countrymen, but I just don't understand how anyone could say that it isn't acceptable to shoot someone in defense of your family and home. |
Maybe it's just me, and millions in Europe and elsewhere, but perhaps it's becuase civilised countries do not permit firearms. |
So you're telling me that no criminals in "civilised countries" have guns? Or, are you saying that ONLY criminals in "civlised countries" have guns? |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:43 am Post subject: |
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On the home invasion issue. I've heard but do not know that that is the case in Texas. I do know for a fact that you cannot do that in California, however. You simply cannot kill anyone unless they (1) are able to kill you; (2) intend to kill you; (3) are in the act of trying to kill you; and (4) you have no where to run -- and you're expected to run from your house if you can, at least in California.
Even then, you're not trying to kill them, you're just trying "to stop" them from killing you, using whatever means you need, and it just so happens that they die.
The Nevada Supreme Court (Nevada jurisprudence follows California) clarified the issue in a case it heard in 2002 or 2003 (can't recall the cite).
An owner of a northern Nevada construction company's daughter got mixed up with some drug dealers. They came to a construction project one night looking for her. They tried to run over the project supervisor when he asked them who they were and why they were looking for his boss's daughter.
When the supervisor told the owner about it, the owner went to find them (the supervisor had the license plate and a description of these men). The police, he judged, were not looking hard enough. He deemed them a threat to his family.
He found them. He went to their house with a shotgun, hoping to detain them and call the police, and they ran from him. They ran away, got into their truck and fled, and he sent many rounds down range as they were running.
And guess who did time for attempted murder? Even though his defense atty presented evidence that one of the drug dealers was an escaped felon, wanted by the police, it was not justifiable to shoot at him or his collaborator at that time and in that context.
So if you want to kill someone, at least in California, you'd better have an obvious reason that everyone would understand. Just because they come into your house to rob you, doesn't in anyway justify your killing them. (Again, I'm told that it's all right in Texas.)
Last edited by Gopher on Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:07 am; edited 5 times in total |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:44 am Post subject: |
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I have fired a live round over the heads of 2 illegal immigrants. No Kidding. I was a border guard once. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Wangja wrote: |
Quote: |
Maybe it's just me, and millions of my countrymen, but I just don't understand how anyone could say that it isn't acceptable to shoot someone in defense of your family and home. |
Maybe it's just me, and millions in Europe and elsewhere, but perhaps it's becuase civilised countries do not permit firearms. |
The United States does not permit the use of cocaine. People still use it. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:51 am Post subject: |
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rapier wrote: |
I have fired a live round over the heads of 2 illegal immigrants. No Kidding. I was a border guard once. |
Where were you a border guard where your rules of engagment allowed for warning shots? |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:23 am Post subject: |
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So does that mean that illegal teachers in Korea should be shot?
Just asking...
and what about the other 3 waygookins that were standing around with the guy.........well what the hey? They might a bin legal..but they wuz a talkin tu that that ILLEGAL TEEEEECCHEEERRR!!!!!!!!!!!! So shoot 'em all!
Let Buddha sort 'em out. YEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!
Guilt bye axfixication donchanoe!
All sarcasm in the preceding message is completely intentional.
Last edited by some waygug-in on Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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