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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Gopher, the only real issue I have with you and I guess with the American Government is that you don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Don't shoot the friend when aiming for the enemy. Don't punish the bearer of bad news.
All of these are relevant if you take a minute to think about it.
Not doing the above would help your country in so many ways. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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Ah! One of the few truly on-topic posts in this thread! Good on ya. Even though these are real issues, a good discussion is always welcomed and it is possible it could be a big issue someday, I still consider this a minor issue in the grand scheme of things.
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Getting a compliment from some people, even one as mild as this one, is like getting frenched by your sister. Objectively, the sensation is pleasurable, but you have to consider the source. |
How germaine! How on-topic! How utterly fascinating in its depth, breadth and insightfulness!! Personally, I always like to respond to a compliment with an insult. Mama taught me well.
Last edited by EFLtrainer on Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Wow, the PPP&O in the DPS + Director of the MITSSP! And yet so very wrong.
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| Canada was not going to contribute anyway, and we were going to go ahead whether or not Canada agreed. No one much cared what Canada said or did. |
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| Under Chrétien, Canada did not support the US-led 2003 invasion of Iraq but was the first non-member of the US-led coalition to provide significant financial aid to the post-war reconstruction effort, relative to Canada's size. Chrétien's reasoning was that the war lacked UN Security Council sanction; while not a member of the Security Council, Canada nevertheless attempted to build a consensus for a resolution authorizing the use of force after a short (two to three month) extension to UN weapon inspections in Iraq. (Critics also noted that, while in opposition, he had also opposed the first US-led Gulf War.) Although criticism from right-wing opposition was vocal, the move proved popular with the Canadian public in general. In December of 2003, it emerged that Chrétien's government had prepared plans for Canada to send as many as 800 Canadian troops to Iraq if UN Security Council had authorized it; however, a UN request for an increased deployment of Canadian peacekeepers to Afghanistan removed this option from the table. This led some of Chrétien's anti-war critics on the left to accuse the Prime Minister of never really being fully opposed to the war. |
BTW, considering army size 800 troops would be like the US sending 20 000. If you prefer population size the number would be over 6000. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
Gopher, the only real issue I have with you and I guess with the American Government is that you don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Don't shoot the friend when aiming for the enemy. Don't punish the bearer of bad news.
All of these are relevant if you take a minute to think about it.
Not doing the above would help your country in so many ways. |
Summer Wine: this is fine.
I don't know about you. But, in my personal life at least, any "friend" who chronically criticized and pointed to fault and told me what was wrong about me, and had nothing else to say accept for that, would be no friend at all...
Usually friends like each other, or have at least some similar interests and agree on some worldviews, no?
Also, do your friends constantly tell everyone that they aren't like you at all?
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
How many does the US have in Bosnia? 5000
Many of these events happend when Clinton was president. |
Indeed, Joo. I was living in the Brazilian northeast in 1999. A Belgian woman started railing at me -- without preamble (probably too much to drink), at an unofficial embassy function where I was talking to a World Bank guy about Brazilian roadbuilding -- about U.S. actions in the former Yugoslavia.
Clinton was president. Bush was not president. This was four years before the Iraqi War.
And she was furious at the United States and Clinton's foreign policies. Even blamed Washington for criminal-related gun deaths in Brazil.
Antiamericanism is not a Bush-induced phenomenon. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:25 am Post subject: |
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don't know about you. But, in my personal life at least, any "friend" who chronically criticized and pointed to fault and told me what was wrong about me, and had nothing else to say accept for that, would be no friend at all...
Usually friends like each other, or have at least some similar interests and agree on some worldviews, no? |
Fair point. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| No, he didn't. But no one but Joo is pretending he did. But he has certainly inflamed and compounded the problem. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: |
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There is a lot of cheap anti-americanism in Canada and I think it only serves to make things worse, but it's definitely not deep-rooted and at the bottom it's just a bit of envy + wanting to be paid attention to. And a bit of a feeling of moral superiority when the US makes a mistake and Canada doesn't follow along.
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I for one would like to hear what others have to say in reaction to Mith's post.
My first reaction was, "This sounds like a Korean talking" (about Korean-American relations.) I've long said that 80% of the anti-Americanism here in Korea would disappear if the president mentioned Korea in a positive way in some major speech, like State of the Union. Koreans seem to thirst for international recognition. Mith seems to be saying that Canadians do, too. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I for one would like to hear what others have to say in reaction to Mith's post.
My first reaction was, "This sounds like a Korean talking" (about Korean-American relations.) I've long said that 80% of the anti-Americanism here in Korea would disappear if the president mentioned Korea in a positive way in some major speech, like State of the Union. Koreans seem to thirst for international recognition. Mith seems to be saying that Canadians do, too. |
Yes, there is independent confirmation that this neediness is real...
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Yes, Bush Did Snub Canada. So What?
By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | September 28, 2001
EVER SINCE President Bush snubbed Canada by not mentioning the country in his address to Congress, many Canadians have been traumatized.
Almost everywhere I go in Toronto, I hear the same thing over and over again: "He insulted us. He didn�t even mention us. How could he do this to us?"... |
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=247 |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:05 am Post subject: |
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The claim was made earlier that China and India are in line to pick up the slack if Canada can't sell its exports to the US. I'm just wondering if this is true. Anyone know? And what would be the cost of shipping it all across the Pacific and/or the Indian Ocean?
I'm also wondering if Brazil and Argentina are in a position to supply what Canada does now. Could they substitute their wood, agricultural products etc.? Would they welcome the billions of dollars in trade? Somehow I think they would be delighted at the opportunity. Maybe the 85 million Mexicans would like more of the factories moving south instead of north.
For some reason I am thinking about Costa Rica. Population about 4 million, size about the same as Iowa, 96% literacy rate. What would they say to a deal to import 100,000 new jobs? Would they turn down an opportunity to join the First World?
Just curious. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:33 am Post subject: ... |
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Hmm...
In terms of China and India, I think they will very readily relieve Canada of manufacturing and tech jobs. Of course, they will do the same to the US at roughly the same time it happens to Canada.
Ideally, we will improve as they use our tech to better themselves. Less than ideally, we will pay corporate subsidies to industrial farms and private airlines while India uses micro-credit to better itself to the point of China's manufacturing powerhouse. There will be cries of "sweatshop" and "slave labor", but how about NIKE?
It's very convenient to forget about that.
To de-Gopherize: No, I don't want developing countries to usurp our power, but that's what I see. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Antiamericanism is not a Bush-induced phenomenon. |
Definetely not.. somehow Bush was the first to actually give it any real legitimacy. I rather welcome the new anti-Bush stuff compared to the general run-of-the-mill old stuff before Bush's administration.
But during the Clinton administration I'd lived in Korea, Brazil, etc.. and had just real dumb stuff told to me about the US particularly when I was down in Brazil.
My favorite is that Brazilians thought it was the fault of the Americans that Brazil had so many prostitutes in Brazil.. I almost fell off my chair! I'd met about 1000 Europeans, large number of Israelis.. and only about a dozen Americans the entire time down there. Just unbelievable sometimes. Americans get 2 weeks of vacation (and seldom leave the country and most don't have passports).. yet it seemed to be common thinking that every foreigner down there was an American looking for prostitutes- when in reality they were almost always 99.99% of the time a European!! Even the 1000s of Europeans down there will be shocked to actually meet one of us 'un-traveled Americans' down there.. how'd we get down there anyways? But not Brazilians.. all those non-Brazilians couldn't be European.. they must be American.
I was even traveling around with a French guy among other guys and we heard a very loud group of people in a restaurant.. first thing he says is 'oh there is an American table in here'.. we got a little closer and it was entirely ALL French! He just assumed well before he actually head the language.
I also got into an argument with a Norwegian guy down there in Salvador (the African-Brazilian capital).. apparently I didn't appear racist and he'd studied his entire life how ALL Americans are racist.. and he couldn't get it out of his head how and why I wasn't a racist as his Norwegian education taught him.
Later I met some real strong actual Norwegian racists.. they were convinced ALL black people had AIDS yet they were determined to find some girls.. white brazilian girls.. as they wouldn't have AIDS.. those were some of the most racist comments I'd ever heard in my life.
Anyhow.. unfortunately ignorance and stupidity is pretty ripe with many of the otherwise 'tolerant' or supposedly 'well-educated' with their way too often negatively read media stories trying to reinforce their own extremely blatant negative generalizations about an entire nation of people they often prove to know absolutely nothing about whatsoever..
One of many examples is how Europeans in particular criticize Americans for supposingly not knowing geography (generally because some innercity school in Detroit had poor geography test scores and the result was recorded and posted in some european newspaper).. but then two seconds later you ask supposedly intelligent Europeans about American geography or any geography outside of Europe really.. and you'll get this puzzled look like where in the hell is Michigan.. and few if any have absolutely any knowledge whatsoever about where Detroit or Chicago or really 99.99% of the USA outside of NY/CA.. whats up with that hypocrisy? And 99 times out of 100 they have no desire to know even though they just asked rather pompously "I know you're American, but WHERE in America?" and they slag on you for being more specific as then we're arrogant for just assuming they'd know where in the hell they wanted us to be more specific about..
Then comes the 'ignorant American'.. oh yes.. the same country that invented about 1,000,000 common place things that the entire world takes as commonplace today.. oh yeah.. nice.. 'ignorant'.. ahmm.. nice. The funny thing is you can't even bring that up in an argument as the person would immediately bring a few select dozen of the most negative things predominately fast-food restaurants or whatever else they can think of that would be the most negative that they don't like from the US.
Anyhow.. my main point being this is ALL well before Bush even became President. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Antiamericanism is not a Bush-induced phenomenon. |
Definetely not.. somehow Bush was the first to actually give it any real legitimacy. I rather welcome the new anti-Bush stuff compared to the general run-of-the-mill old stuff before Bush's administration.
But during the Clinton administration I'd lived in Korea, Brazil, etc.. and had just real dumb stuff told to me about the US particularly when I was down in Brazil.
My favorite is that Brazilians thought it was the fault of the Americans that Brazil had so many prostitutes in Brazil.. I almost fell off my chair! I'd met about 1000 Europeans, large number of Israelis.. and only about a dozen Americans the entire time down there. Just unbelievable sometimes. Americans get 2 weeks of vacation (and seldom leave the country and most don't have passports).. yet it seemed to be common thinking that every foreigner down there was an American looking for prostitutes- when in reality they were almost always 99.99% of the time a European!! Even the 1000s of Europeans down there will be shocked to actually meet one of us 'un-traveled Americans' down there.. how'd we get down there anyways? But not Brazilians.. all those non-Brazilians couldn't be European.. they must be American.
I was even traveling around with a French guy among other guys and we heard a very loud group of people in a restaurant.. first thing he says is 'oh there is an American table in here'.. we got a little closer and it was entirely ALL French! He just assumed well before he actually head the language.
I also got into an argument with a Norwegian guy down there in Salvador (the African-Brazilian capital).. apparently I didn't appear racist and he'd studied his entire life how ALL Americans are racist.. and he couldn't get it out of his head how and why I wasn't a racist as his Norwegian education taught him.
Later I met some real strong actual Norwegian racists.. they were convinced ALL black people had AIDS yet they were determined to find some girls.. white brazilian girls.. as they wouldn't have AIDS.. those were some of the most racist comments I'd ever heard in my life.
Anyhow.. unfortunately ignorance and stupidity is pretty ripe with many of the otherwise 'tolerant' or supposedly 'well-educated' with their way too often negatively read media stories trying to reinforce their own extremely blatant negative generalizations about an entire nation of people they often prove to know absolutely nothing about whatsoever..
One of many examples is how Europeans in particular criticize Americans for supposingly not knowing geography (generally because some innercity school in Detroit had poor geography test scores and the result was recorded and posted in some european newspaper).. but then two seconds later you ask supposedly intelligent Europeans about American geography or any geography outside of Europe really.. and you'll get this puzzled look like where in the hell is Michigan.. and few if any have absolutely any knowledge whatsoever about where Detroit or Chicago or really 99.99% of the USA outside of NY/CA.. whats up with that hypocrisy? And 99 times out of 100 they have no desire to know even though they just asked rather pompously "I know you're American, but WHERE in America?" and they slag on you for being more specific as then we're arrogant for just assuming they'd know where in the hell they wanted us to be more specific about..
Then comes the 'ignorant American'.. oh yes.. the same country that invented about 1,000,000 common place things that the entire world takes as commonplace today.. oh yeah.. nice.. 'ignorant'.. ahmm.. nice. The funny thing is you can't even bring that up in an argument as the person would immediately bring a few select dozen of the most negative things predominately fast-food restaurants or whatever else they can think of that would be the most negative that they don't like from the US.
Anyhow.. my main point being this is ALL well before Bush even became President. |
Hahahaha... Quite entertaining.
I think the best point in this is about geography, especially considering the size of some European countries and the size of the United States.
If you ever have a complaint about something, just remember that it's all our fault. |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:58 am Post subject: |
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From the article:
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| The recent decision by Prime Minister Paul Martin not to have Canada participate in the U.S. missile ballistic defence program shows how insensitive the Canadian government has become to U.S. politics. The Left in America has all but given up fighting ballistic missile defence, |
It has? I've read plenty of articles criticizing missile ballistic defence from US sources.
As for Canada, most people were opposed to it. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Alias wrote: |
| As for Canada, most people were opposed to it. |
Cool. You didn't support it. There is nothing at all in current missile defense plans that has anything at all to do with Canada.
Now, as it stands, why do you care? Is it only a source to rant against the U.S.? |
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