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| Should Dr. Kissinger face a war crimes tribunal? |
| Yes |
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64% |
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| No |
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28% |
[ 7 ] |
| It's all rather complicated |
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8% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 25 |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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You sure went on and on and on and on with...not much.
I said on page one that Kissinger could be convicted of conspiracy in the Chilean case -- and on not much more than an attempted kidnapping charge.
How does anything that you posted sustain any other charge?
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| the destruction of a nation |
I object to singling the U.S. out for moralizing and I object to this kind of hyperbole, therefore I'm a right-winger.
Right.
I can easily see how, in the context of the typical views expressed on this board, I am a right-winger. Absolutely. Put me in Canadian politics and I'm a right-winger, too.
In the U.S., however, I'm something of a centrist. Left-of-center to be precise.
Of course, U.S. politics are Satanic, and the rest of the world knows better. So what does that matter, right? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| ...saying that the US was right to support mass murder because of a fear of communism. |
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| messing with other people's countries...for the sake of a political game and you wonder why no one likes you. |
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| ...does not give the US the right to ruin peoples lives. That is what we call morality and you can justify all you want but in the end Kissenger is a war criminal along with a whole host of others. |
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| The US certainly is the home of freedom, indeed. |
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| ...Kissenger's bloodthirsty nature. |
You're a Canadian, so you're into preachiness, so at least I understand where you're coming from here.
However, no one but amatuer history-buffs are interested in using history to judge like this. The rest of us are interested in understanding, contextualizing, and explaining motives, actions, and consequences (which is not, no matter how you may rail, justifying).
Your reduction of U.S. motives to "playing a political game" is ridiculous. This was not a game.
Among the other dramatic nonsense cited above, you're also throwing around another hyperbolic charge here: "mass murder."
How was there "mass murder" in Chile?
I assume that you've read the Truth Commission's report and can cite their data. Does the Truth Commission talk about "mass murder"? Does this commission blame the U.S. govt for this? What evidence links the U.S. to this "mass murder"?
So who, besides you, calls it "mass murder"?
It's this kind of misinformed hyperbole that I take issue with. I also see right through you when you say that "Chile" shows how the U.S. "ruins peoples' lives." The U.S. did this, huh?
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:51 am; edited 2 times in total |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| thanx EFL Trainer, its pretty clear that gopher is one of those know-it-alls who spent university acting like god herself blessed him with divine knowledge. Its also clear hes a right wing lunatic, the question is if he's so proud why isn't he in Iraq fighting with the other legions defending the empire? |
Actually, that's the strange thing: he claims to be a democrat. And has made statements that would support that. However, on anti-Americanism and when challenged in general, does not respond well. I do not know why. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| thanx EFL Trainer, its pretty clear that gopher is one of those know-it-alls who spent university acting like god herself blessed him with divine knowledge. Its also clear hes a right wing lunatic, the question is if he's so proud why isn't he in Iraq fighting with the other legions defending the empire? |
Actually, that's the strange thing: he claims to be a democrat. And has made statements that would support that. However, on anti-Americanism and when challenged in general, does not respond well. I do not know why. |
Just because someone isn't as "falling off the edge of the world" left as you two does not make that person a "right wing lunatic." I am a Democrat and a card carrying member of the NAACP and the ACLU.
You two, however, make me look like a Nazi.
You hit it on the head when you, EFLTrainer, siad that about Gopher and anti-Americanism. That's what he doesn't like. Don't confuse that with conservatism, OH. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| thanx EFL Trainer, its pretty clear that gopher is one of those know-it-alls who spent university acting like god herself blessed him with divine knowledge. Its also clear hes a right wing lunatic, the question is if he's so proud why isn't he in Iraq fighting with the other legions defending the empire? |
Actually, that's the strange thing: he claims to be a democrat. And has made statements that would support that. However, on anti-Americanism and when challenged in general, does not respond well. I do not know why. |
Just because someone isn't as "falling off the edge of the world" left as you two does not make that person a "right wing lunatic." I am a Democrat and a card carrying member of the NAACP and the ACLU.
You two, however, make me look like a Nazi.
You hit it on the head when you, EFLTrainer, siad that about Gopher and anti-Americanism. That's what he doesn't like. Don't confuse that with conservatism, OH. |
Hey, pligganease, I didn't say squat. I did respond saying he isn't a right-winger, so what the hell? Also, I'd be willing to bet if we actually had a conversation you'd find you are wrong in your assessment of me.
Make a list issues with your stance. I'll respond. Bet we won't be far off unless you lie. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:10 am Post subject: |
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http://www.bilderberg.org/kissing.htm
On Free & Fair ( i.e. Democratic ) Elections
"The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."
Kissinger |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| "The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves." |
Kissinger said this. Nixon also talked about "smashing" Allende in fall 1970. If you review the NSC meeting on 6 Nov. 1970, you will see cabinet members talking about "hurting" and "bringing down" Allende.
If you review the Chile Declassification Project, like I have, you will find things that I have missed.
Did the U.S. govt (with all of the others I've alread listed) seek to influence Chilean elections between 1962 and, it hoped, 1976? Yes, it did. (See the Church Committee's staff report for the full story. CIA also has its own case study on the 1964 elections which remains classified for some reason.)
Why did they do this? (Do you care?)
And do arrogant statements in the White House prove what the U.S. was actually able to accomplish on the ground in Chile?
And Pligannease: I see some good advice in your take on my postings. Clearly I don't like the antiAmericanism and I respond to it emotionally, even severely at times, and this is dangerous bias. So I'll thank you for that. However, this forum is also Alice-in-Wunderland, esp. when it comes to the U.S., if you want to understand where my frustration comes from. Blame it on the former Marine in me. Semper Fidelis.
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:42 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| After the conspirators ended up killing [Schneider], the CIA had to wait almost a year for the coup to go forward. |
Sorry, I only caught this one later. You are deceiving our readers here.
After Schneider's death, CIA disbanded the Track II/BELT task force, sent the task force chief back to Brazil (in November, after he finished his after-action reporting), where he was chief of station.
Not only did CIA never reform the task force, but Nixon purged CIA. There are no 40 Committee meetings on or authorizations for a renewed coup effort. I've looked for such documents. So has Peter Kornbluh and several others. We haven't found them because they aren't there. That is the most probable reason for our inability to locate them.
After November 1970, CIA, indeed, the U.S. govt, ceased its efforts to induce a coup d'etat in Chile. And it was not "almost a year," by the way, but three full years. Get your facts straight.
Unless you've seen data that I have not... |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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So Gopher agrees with me that Kissenger could be tried for some of the things that went on in Chile, thus I'm right. That probably wasn't easy for an american to do as you guys are always right.
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When a Spanish judge pressed charges against Gen. Augusto Pinochet in 1998, the case broke an international code of silence on the fates of the tens of thousands of Latin Americans who were tortured and killed during more than a decade of dictatorship in Chile and neighboring countries. The United States agreed to Spain's request for 60,000 pages of secret files on Chile, including CIA operational files. Former NPR news managing editor Dinges (Our Man in Panama), who lived in Chile and was interrogated in a secret torture camp during the Pinochet dictatorship, pored through those files and has uncovered the chilling story of Operation Condor, a Chilean-led conspiracy among six South American dictatorships to hunt down and eliminate leftist rebels and their sympathizers. Condor was responsible for the 1973 murder in Washington, D.C., of Chilean exile Orlando Letelier, which U.S. diplomats were aware of and failed to stop. Indeed, the picture that emerges of U.S. policy is frightening. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger's "green light, red light" human rights policy for the first time presented a public U.S. stance in favor of human rights, yet behind closed doors, he was reassuring Latin America's dictators of U.S. support. Hampered by the weight and significance of its revelations, the book gets off to a slow start. Soon enough, however, vivid stories and details emerge: double agents, the euphemisms of the spy trade (e.g., "wet work" for assassinations), bumbling murderers and rebels, and cynical U.S. diplomats. Dinges's meticulously documented study is a cautionary tale for today's war on terror-which shares a major anniversary with the 1973 Chilean coup that brought Pinochet to power: September 11.
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-from the review for john Dinges' book "The Condor Years: How Pinochet and His Allies Brought Terrorism to Three Continents"
If you know your neibour is going to murder his wife and you give him a gun and train him on the techniques for escaping the police, aren't you just as responsible for that murder as he is? Not in America, they're not responsible for anything! |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| The more things change, the more they stay the same. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| If you know your neibour is going to murder his wife and you give him a gun and train him on the techniques for escaping the police, aren't you just as responsible for that murder as he is? Not in America, they're not responsible for anything! |
Octavius: please stick to the specific issues at hand. This wasn't about next-door neighbors, wives, or escaping police custody.
It's about an unwieldy (and according to recent stories surfacing in the Chilean press, a very corrupt) military dictator who had his own ideology and his own plans, who was supported by a military with its own, and very deeply-rooted, "antipolitical" stance. There is your ultimate cause.
Was the U.S. involved in this? Yes. From start to finish.
Thanks for the picture with Saddam. It's a good analogy, for the purposes of this thread. Because in Chile, too, Washington got in over its head and got way more than it was bargaining for. The U.S., esp. State and CIA, had hoped that after a coup, the military would call for new elections, and a non-Marxist candidate would win; no one in the U.S. wanted two decades of military dictatorship and human rights abuse.
This notwithstanding, did Kissinger assure Pinochet (and others, probably Videla and company) of U.S. support behind closed doors? Yes. Did the Carter Administration reverse this? Yes. Did the Reagan Administration continue it? Yes. That was Kirkpatrick's thesis (which was that, for better or for worse, the enemy of my enemy is my friend). Did the Bush and Clinton Administration's reverse this yet again? Yes. So be careful when describing what "the U.S." did, by the way.
In any case, Kissinger also had a very hard time trying to keep Pinochet from invading Peru. He had to threaten him that there would be bipartisan condemnation in Congress and the UN would probably intervene, not to mention there was less of a cause for war with Peru than Bush had with Saddam in 2003.
Was Pinochet sane? I don't know. Many Chileans hate him; others want him sainted. I saw an interview in '97, he was still commander-in-chief and "senator-for-life" -- incidentally, there are just enough of these Pinochet-appointed senators-for-life around to keep any govt from changing the constitution that Pinochet dictated in 1980 for our lifetimes.
In the interview a journalist asked mi general about the Letelier case. Pinochet responded with outrage that the U.S. identified, caught, and demanded the extradition and prosecution of those DINA agents involved, including Contreras, a Pinochet henchman who finally did time in the 1990s. Pinochet said something like "Oh yes. They caught them quite quickly. But I find it interesting that after all these years they've never been able to solve the murder of Kennedy, their own president."
Pinochet was also asked about U.S. support when he came to power. He denied it. Pinochet said that the U.S. was overrun by Communists in '73 and '74. Again, I saw him say this and many other things on television in '97.
So, before you moralize about this anymore, realize that the U.S. govt got way more than it was bargaining for with Pinochet, and that, liaison relationships or not, Washington, too, was taken for a ride in the Southern Cone.
Anyway, Octavius: the U.S. is not on trial here; Kissinger is on trial. And, as I've already said, Kissinger could be convicted for conspiracy on an attempted kidnapping charge. The evidence does not support a charge for any other crime. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Kissinger's Extradition To Uruguay Sought
Over Operation Condor
Sun Mar 25, 2:41 AM ET
MONTEVIDEO (AFP) - An attorney for a victim of Uruguay's 1973-1985 dictatorship has asked his government to request the extradition of former US secretary of state Henry Kissinger over his alleged role in the notorious Operation Condor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
Condor was a secret plan hatched by South American dictators in the 1970s to eliminate leftist political opponents in the region. Details of the plan have emerged over the past years in documents and court testimony.
The Latin American dictatorships of the time "were mere executors" of a "plan of extermination" hatched in the United States by a group led by Kissinger, said attorney Gustavo Salle, who represents the family of Bernardo Arnone.
Uruguayan prosecutor Mirtha Guianze has received the request and is studying the case, according to news reports.
A leftist activist, Arnone was arrested in October 1976 and flown to Argentina with a group of political prisoners that vanished and were presumably executed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonia_Dignidad
Kissinger played a dominant role in US foreign policy between 1969 and 1977, and was a strong supporter of right-wing regimes across Latin America.
The extradition request comes as the topic of rights violations during Uruguay's dictatorship is making headlines again, with Salle citing evidence from declassified US State Department documents.
Witnesses are set to testify in April in a case that began in September against eight retired regime officials over rights violations. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Kissinger |
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| Kissinger also advised US entry into Iraq in 2003 & also had a finger in the 1971 Bangladesh pie. I voted 'complicated' but a very close 2nd choice was 'yes'. |
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