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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| Hey, efltrainer, did you even read the "quotes" that you posted? According to what you posted "verbal assault" only exists inside schools, not on the streets of Toledo. If you read the "quotes" you posted, the part about Columbus, Ohio, if I'm reading it right, is a DISSENTING opinion to the Supreme Court's ruling that the city's ordinance is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Therefore, outside of schools, there is NO verbal assault, according to your uncited quotes. |
1. As stated before, none of those quotes were posted to suuport or not support the argument here.
2. The Ohio case was a cabbie berating a customer. The law was overturned due to it being overbroad because they felt it could be used to limit protected speach, not due to the issue of the existence or non-existense of "verbal abuse." It does not address that issue at all.
3. I find it a little assumptive to assume there are no statutes anywhere in the US based on one law being overturned. We also do not kow if the ordinance was revised and still exists.
As far as yopur repetition of "uncited", don't you find it a bit ridiculous to insinuate a US Superme Court case does not exist? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: |
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The U.S. Congress defined in 1992 a hate crime as a crime in which "the defendant's conduct was motivated by hatred, bias, or prejudice, based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity of another individual or group of individuals" (HR 4797). In 1994, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act added disabilities to the above list.
In the last decade of the 20th century, legislation in many U.S. states has established harsher penalties for a number of crimes when they are also considered hate crimes; interestingly, however, very few of these statutes make it more likely for a murder to trigger the death penalty when it is found to have also been a hate crime. While some claim that these hate crimes laws exist because women and certain minorities have been victims and require special protection, others say that they exist because crimes motivated by hate deserve a harsher punishment. California Penal Code section 422.6 offers a wider interpretation of hate crime, defining it as those acts "committed because of the victim's actual or perceived race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, gender, or sexual orientation. The actions considered criminal are using force or threat of force to willfully injure, intimidate, interfere with, oppress, or threaten any other person in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him or her by the Constitution or laws of the State or country." |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
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The U.S. Congress defined in 1992 a hate crime as a crime in which "the defendant's conduct was motivated by hatred, bias, or prejudice, based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity of another individual or group of individuals" (HR 4797). In 1994, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act added disabilities to the above list.
In the last decade of the 20th century, legislation in many U.S. states has established harsher penalties for a number of crimes when they are also considered hate crimes; interestingly, however, very few of these statutes make it more likely for a murder to trigger the death penalty when it is found to have also been a hate crime. While some claim that these hate crimes laws exist because women and certain minorities have been victims and require special protection, others say that they exist because crimes motivated by hate deserve a harsher punishment. California Penal Code section 422.6 offers a wider interpretation of hate crime, defining it as those acts "committed because of the victim's actual or perceived race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, gender, or sexual orientation. The actions considered criminal are using force or threat of force to willfully injure, intimidate, interfere with, oppress, or threaten any other person in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him or her by the Constitution or laws of the State or country." |
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Are you suggesting one group, the other or both engaged in a hate crime? Or that "verbal assault" is covered under the statute? Or....? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Actually, I'm just offering information with no source and thus total fabrications!
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
Actually, I'm just offering information with no source and thus total fabrications!
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I'm never sure if I'm being laughed at or laughed with by your responses.  |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| Would you please provide the links for these. Somehow, I don't think we're getting the whole picture with what you provided. |
Don't often stick up for wannago, but it was a fair request, politely submitted. (Or as close as he usually gets to good manners, anyway.)
EFLT, you likely googled to get those quotes. It would taken perhaps 15 seconds out of your life to have posted the link at the same time. And, yeah, a lot of us do get suspicious that a larger context is being ignored when we are not given the tools to check that out when it woould have been very easy for you to provide that ...
The first quote is from
Michigan student takes school to court over suspension
and wannago might be on to something. The article refers to a policy that is being disputed in court - ther term "verbal abuse" is part of the dispute and there seems to be no reference to a legal definition of it, merely an administrative one. I've only skimmed the thing, the rest of you can look more deeply at it.
The second quote, I think, comes from the transcipts of that proceeding which is linked to at the bottom of the page - I don't know for sure because the link isn't working for me at this moment, so I could be all wrong about that.
Again, it's not a statute or ordinance, just a policy of a school ...
The third, about Plummer Vs Ohio has not yet turned up any results. Sorry. Better luck to the rest of you. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:06 am Post subject: Does "Verbal Assault" Exist in the U.S.? |
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Got an email from a friend who is an atty in the States. I'll paraphrase what he said and keep him anonymous:
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It may be a minor crime, but it is not likely that the state would prosecute. It would be difficult, perhaps impossible, to establish damages in a civil suit.
If it exists and is prosecutable, it probably exists in family law (domestic violence):
(a) if there, it is biased to see females as victims and males as aggressors, as is the overall system;
(b) the male will be prosecuted and, "in an abundance of caution," an idea that dominates the family law courts these days, probably jailed;
(b) then the female gets custody of the kids, the house, 75% of the marital assets, and 50% of her exhusband's net for the next 18 years.
(c) The verbal assault charge can be and is fabricated, too, esp. in custody battles. |
Thus has feminism impacted the law, at least in California...
Doesn't seem likely at all that the Nazis were "verbally assaulting" anyone in Toledo, that is, that they even could, legally, unless we're referencing their home lives, where there's probably a hell of a lot of verbal assault going on because they're Nazis. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Would you please provide the links for these. Somehow, I don't think we're getting the whole picture with what you provided. |
Don't often stick up for wannago, but it was a fair request, politely submitted. (Or as close as he usually gets to good manners, anyway.)
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EFLT, you likely googled to get those quotes. It would taken perhaps 15 seconds out of your life to have posted the link at the same time. |
And politely responded to. Again, the reason for posting those was limited, so there was no need. However, it wasn't a conscious choice, I just didn't put the link in. I usually do. But simple logic applies: why in the hell would I take the time to write up ghost stories at w1,000 an hour? Also, you may have noticed how poor my typing is... this is not an important issue.
| Quote: |
| And, yeah, a lot of us do get suspicious that a larger context is being ignored when we are not given the tools to check that out when it woould have been very easy for you to provide that ... |
Again, it wasn't about the context in general, ONLY about whether such laws exist.
| Quote: |
The first quote is from
Michigan student takes school to court over suspension
and wannago might be on to something. The article refers to a policy that is being disputed in court - ther term "verbal abuse" is part of the dispute and there seems to be no reference to a legal definition of it, merely an administrative one. I've only skimmed the thing, the rest of you can look more deeply at it.
The second quote, I think, comes from the transcipts of that proceeding which is linked to at the bottom of the page - I don't know for sure because the link isn't working for me at this moment, so I could be all wrong about that.
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Again, it's not a statute or ordinance, just a policy of a school ... |
No, the second is directly from Georgia State statutes. Check out the number at the top left. It is posted because, if I recall, it references directions to school districts/schools in Georgia to create conduct codes based on the state statutes. This is important as it is a strong inference that Georgia has a statute that addresses verbal assault. It would be nice to be able to find direct evidence, though.
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| The third, about Plummer Vs Ohio has not yet turned up any results. Sorry. Better luck to the rest of you. |
The three different quotes were posted to show the different levels at which "verbal abuse" is addressed. Also, it really is hard to find info!!
Again, I think the point is being missed. I posted a far more interesting post about the issue, but it gets ignored in favor of checking my veracity?  Don't worry, my veracity is not in question and no one is going to show otherwise, so... can we get back to the issue? |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| [Again, I think the point is being missed. I posted a far more interesting post about the issue, but it gets ignored in favor of checking my veracity? Don't worry, my veracity is not in question and no one is going to show otherwise, so... can we get back to the issue? |
Part of the interest in the veracity lies in the interest in knowing where the quotes came from. If there's a distraction from any issue, you caused it yourself, by neglecting to post where you got your stuff.
| Quote: |
| Also, it really is hard to find info!! |
I discovered that when I tried to google in the wake of your googling. If you post data attempting to buttress a point of view, it takes a bare few seconds to also post where you got that data. If you are unhappy with the direction of the discussion, learn from this in the future. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| [Again, I think the point is being missed. I posted a far more interesting post about the issue, but it gets ignored in favor of checking my veracity? Don't worry, my veracity is not in question and no one is going to show otherwise, so... can we get back to the issue? |
Part of the interest in the veracity lies in the interest in knowing where the quotes came from. If there's a distraction from any issue, you caused it yourself, by neglecting to post where you got your stuff.
| Quote: |
| Also, it really is hard to find info!! |
I discovered that when I tried to google in the wake of your googling. If you post data attempting to buttress a point of view, it takes a bare few seconds to also post where you got that data. If you are unhappy with the direction of the discussion, learn from this in the future. |
Bobster, a little perspective: this is not a peer review commission, an investigative commission, a grand jury, a civil suit or anything of that nature. It is a bunch of people having a discussion, anonymously, at that, for no reason whatsoever. When was the last time you had your friends over for dinner and demanded they bring out their source material to bolster their opinion in th middle of a good discussion?? Same here. Relax.
Some folk take this a little too seriously. |
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