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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:05 am Post subject: Civilians Killed in U.S. Bombing |
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EDIT: Bobster, dude, took all of ten seconds to copy the headline with byline, past into yahoo search and press go. A little more effective and less wasteful of space, time and energy than admonishments, eh?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_051017101806
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Iraqis: Civilians Killed in U.S. Bombing By THOMAS WAGNER, Associated Press Writer
36 minutes ago
BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. warplanes and helicopters bombed two western villages, killing an estimated 70 militants near a site where five American soldiers died in a weekend roadside blast, the military said Monday. Residents said at least 39 of the dead were civilians. |
That'll show those militants!! Shoot us? Hah! We'll come back and kill your wives and kids, too!
Just who is the terrorist here These rules of engagement remind me much of Vietnam.
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| Sunday's violence near the insurgent stronghold of Ramadi came a day after Iraq voted on a landmark constitution that many Sunnis opposed. As officials continued counting millions of paper ballots Monday, the charter seemed assured of passage. |
Brilliant timing.
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On Saturday, a roadside bomb killed five U.S. soldiers in a vehicle in the Al-Bu Ubaid village on the eastern outskirts of Ramadi. On Sunday, a group of about two dozen Iraqis gathered around the wreckage; they were hit by U.S. airstrikes, the military and witnesses said.
The military said the crowd was setting another roadside bomb when F-15 warplanes hit them, killing about 20 people it described as "terrorists."
But several residents and one local leader said they were civilians gathering to gawk at and take pieces of the wreckage, as often occurs after an American vehicle is hit.
Tribal leader Chiad Saad said the airstrike killed 25 civilians, and several others said the same thing, although they refused to give their names out of fear for their safety. |
This could be less than reliable, however.
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The other deaths occurred in the nearby village of Al-Bu Faraj.
The military said a group of gunmen opened fire on a Cobra attack helicopter that spotted their position. The Cobra returned fire, killing about 10. The men ran into a nearby house, where gunmen were seen unloading weapons before an F/A-18 warplane bombed the building, killing 40 insurgents, the military said.
Witnesses said at least 14 of the dead were civilians. After a man was wounded in an airstrike, he was brought into a nearby building that was struck by warplanes, said the witnesses, who refused to give their names out of fear for their safety.
An Iraqi journalist reporting for The Associated Press said he later saw the 14 bodies and the damaged building.
Associated Press Television News video from the scene showed the victims included at least two children and one woman. Witnesses said seven other children were among the dead. APTN also showed two children among the wounded at Ramadi General Hospital. |
Way to go. I'm tellin' ya, if ya get 'em young we won't have no more terroists.   
I can't help feeling that if they keep killing so many civilians it's eventually going to turn virtually the entire country against the goverment and the US. The only balancing point is the even larger number of civilians the Iraqi and foreign attacks are killing. Maybe that will maintain a lesser of two evils perspective among Iraqis.
But what about after the warring is done? How bitter will they be about the huge number that died during the war and during the sanctions?
Last edited by EFLtrainer on Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Civilians Killed in U.S. Bombing |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
That'll show those militants!! Shoot us? Hah! We'll come back and kill your wives and kids, too!
Just who is the terrorist here These rules of engagement remind me much of Vietnam. |
Yah well ... just remember, it's not terorism when ...  |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| a roadside bomb killed five U.S. soldiers in a vehicle |
It was supposedly a Bradley. The Americans have seriously got some problems now if thats whats being taken out by road side bombs.
Overkill on the town, probably.
But lets put the issue in perspective, the news reports aren't telling the whole story here. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| But lets put the issue in perspective, the news reports aren't telling the whole story here. |
How can they when press freedom is restricted? |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Just so I understand...
When insurgents kill civillians, it's our fault.
When we accidently kill civillians, it's our fault.
Just checking. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
Just so I understand...
When insurgents kill civillians, it's our fault.
When we accidently kill civillians, it's our fault.
Just checking. |
Just trolling. If you've got nothing to say, why say anything?
But to answer you: since we initiated an injust and illegal war, yes, by extension. However, the Iraqi rebels (let's get our terms right) and the militant insurgents are responsible for their own choices. Both choices were wrong. As an American, I choose to stand up and speak the truth.
It is only through speaking honestly and taking responsibility for our actions that other nations may come to trust us again in the future. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| But lets put the issue in perspective, the news reports aren't telling the whole story here. |
How can they when press freedom is restricted? |
How can we get a clear and somewhat accurate take on the objective facts when you post news articles obviously from the web, but don't deign to post a link to the original article?
You posted several paragraphs with breaks in between the sections - you MIGHT be leaving important parts out for all we know, elements of the published version that might bring about a different interpretaion than what you have come to ... I said MIGHT. There would be nothing wrong if you had done so, just so long as we can look at the original source and see if something is gone and make some surmises about why.
If you're going to hang around here, oughta get with the local culture : you cite something as evidence for your opinions, show us the source where you got that evidence. It's a small thing to do, indicates respect for those of us who decide to hang around here. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Bobster,
Was that addressed to me? If so, I will try and do so more possible next time. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| If you're going to hang around here, oughta get with the local culture : you cite something as evidence for your opinions, show us the source where you got that evidence. It's a small thing to do, indicates respect for those of us who decide to hang around here. |
It's an AP article. How hard can it be to find? I'm leaving out nothing relevant to my comments. I don't remember if I quoted the whole article or parts, frankly. But I posted anything that was germaine to *my* responses.
You might want to wait till you find me lying before accusing me of possibly doing it. I could care less about the "culture." A post is a post and what it needs to be useful or salient will vary from post to post. But I asked no question, requested no commentary. What is posted stands on its own. You can respond if you wish, but don't have to. But stop questioning my veracity. It's pointless and wastes space on the forum. Particularly in this case since I commented on both sides and made a fair observation of both groups' actions. It was an observation on my part and nothing more. It requires no justification.
If you don't want to take me at face value, fine. But chasing me around the board whinging when I forget to or simply do not see the need to post a link isn't going to do much for you or me.
Now, as I said on another thread, I usually do post links. Don't know why I diodn't this time. It wasn't a conscious thing. I just didn't. There's no disrespect. However, it most likely came from yahoo or cnn. Don't recall. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| You might want to wait till you find me lying before accusing me of possibly doing it. |
Never accused you of anything aside of the inconsiderate act of posting an article you had a link to at the time of posting and refraining from posting that link also. Takes almost 4 seconds to do the polite thing, so your life is not appreciably shorter by it.
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| I could care less about the "culture." A post is a post and what it needs to be useful or salient will vary from post to post. But I asked no question, requested no commentary. What is posted stands on its own. |
Not exactly true. There is a larger world outside of these forums that we are all attempting to respond to and make sense of. Also, yiou may not care about the local culture but that local culture just might start to care about you - or not.
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| You can respond if you wish, but don't have to. But stop questioning my veracity. It's pointless and wastes space on the forum |
Never did querston your truthfulness, just did some work to fill in the gaps you left in yiour trail once or twice, and thanks for noiticing, no gratitude necessary ...
If anything wastes space on a discussion board, it's a long quote from elsewhere on the web, and a blithe refusal to post where it came from, as it just gives fodder to those who say "Anyone who opposes ME, is just making stuff up!"
| Quote: |
| Particularly in this case since I commented on both sides and made a fair observation of both groups' actions. It was an observation on my part and nothing more. It requires no justification. |
If you use the quote function, the quote has to come from somewhere. If it's from someone in the present dicussion thread, we all assume the quote has already been read, and if it's from another discussion thread then we'd like a link to that thread to see the wider context of the conversation. If the quote comes from some place on the web, provide the link so we can make some surmises about the overall context - especially as to what we think migh be biases towasrd one direction or the other.
| Quote: |
| If you don't want to take me at face value, fine. But chasing me around the board whinging when I forget to or simply do not see the need to post a link isn't going to do much for you or me. |
My posts in response to yours in the past day or two have been attempts to offer advice. Accept it or ignore it at your own perceived benefit or peril. I mean you no harm.
As for "chasing" you, I saw you do it twice in two days, and commented on it, one time doing the trouble to google for the source as you suggested others do ... doing your work for you, some would say, and in the few minues I devoted I couldn't find the links you asked others to go search for. Naw, I don't expect you to pay me, and I don't expect you to be grateful ... but on the internet, there are no faces excpet the ones we present by our words and deeds, so it is exactly that and nothing more than determines how much value your "face" has.
Again, accept or reject this advice according to your estimate of its value to you ... no harm is intended, just a word from someone who has been at this for a while ...
Last edited by The Bobster on Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Bobster, you don't realize you're pulling a Joo, do ya.
I didn't blithely do anything. I didn't intentionally do anything. I didn't avoid something because of MY assessment of it's value. Any explanations were after the fact, not in my mind at the time I posted, simply to explain why you are overreacting and wasting yout time and mine.
Harangue me when I habitually don't link. If I had been doing that, you'd ahve something to say. Until then, you truly are wasting your time.
I don't need you to try to play papa. I know how to post. That said, I ALWAYS reject anyone's attempts to make us all little copies of each other. I will post as I post and for reasons that are mine, thank you very much.
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| I know how to post. |
Gee, I didn;t notice that. I really thought yhou were making stupid "newbie" mistakes ... so does that mean you left out the links on purpose? WHY did you do that? in one case I did notice that the source I found tended to agree with folks accusing you of hiding the facts ...
| Quote: |
| I will post as I post and for reasons that are mine, thank you very much |
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If you find something worth our thinking twice about, post it, but also tell us where yiou found it. We will appreciate that - it you are just coming around for your own gratification rather than sharing then we will figure that out pretty soon and no one will care what you say, no matter who you quote witout atttribution.
Once more, my words to you have been offered with the best of intentiions, the best toward you and toward the forum in general, and if you want to make snide insults about either those intentions or the age of the person offering them, I simply offer to you that you could to better for yourself than what you are doing now.
Good day to you, sir, my best hopes go out that your furure efforst bear better fruit trhan your recent ones have. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Bobster, your intentions are whatever they are, but hardly innocent at this point. You are being patronizing and foolish. Do a search on my handle and see what percentage of the time I don't use links. This conversation is the equivalent of a parent berating their child for an hour because they didn't do their homework before going out to play ONCE in six months.
Once again, papa dearest, I posted that info SOLELY to show that such laws do, in fact, exist and for no other reason. Therefore, your concern for the source, etc., is based solely in your need to be the forum Daddy of the Day because the links are simply not needed. The SC case alone amply demonstrates that such laws DO exist. Now, if you ahd wanted to deal intelligently with the issue, you could have then gone and done your own research to see if there are, at this time, applicable laws on the books for THIS CASE. To repeat, yet aflippingain, I posted those quotes ONLY to show such laws existed after another poster flatly stated - without any checking whatsoever - that they do not exist.
You are asking questions for which answers were already given.
You want to question my veracity, do it or be quiet. Don't make insinuations. And a big thank you for hi-jacking what could have been an interesting discussion.
Nuff said. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
And a big thank you for hi-jacking what could have been an interesting discussion.
Nuff said. |
Nuff was said a long time ago, fella.
It was your choice to perceive insults and insinuations that weren't there and carry on for so long ... it was your choice not to say more than one single thing about the topic in the OP after you began this thread, so do take responsiblity for that and do not place it elsewhere ... finally, of course, it was YOUR choice to post a lengthy article with no link - and thanks for finally agreeing with me enough to post that link by edit.
You coulda saved yerself a little bother by doing so earlier with a quick apology that you were too busy at the time ... oh, and sorry to learn it takes you 6 seconds loger than me to clipboard and paste, even though I somehow manage to do it without having to show the actual url on the page, which sometimes takes up so much room it pushes the page out of whack - pm me, if you want to know the arcane and mysterious "secrets" about how to do this ... one more time, no offense was ever inteneded toward your person, so believe it and move on, okay?
Came across this today from the ZNet site - NOT an unbiased source, and I like that sometimes, the ones that claim to be unbiased often are not so when you look at them closely enough, eh?
It's from an article by Dahr Jamail, and he has a point of view - and while the article is primarily focused on the Iraqi electiions("Elections and other Deceptions in Iraq"), it does refer to at least one of the military actions descibed in the AP article above, adding a bit of clarity and reality by means of quotes from actual Iraqis in the hospital who had to deal with the corpses.
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A perfect example of the aggression he refers to occurred in Ramadi yesterday. Residents claimed that several people, including children, were congregating around the site where a US military vehicle was destroyed and five soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb on election day.
US warplanes conducted a strike on the crowd of two dozen people which had gathered to look at the wreckage and strip it for scrap metal. The military claimed that they were setting another roadside bomb in the same location.
Dr. Bassem al-Dulaimi at the main hospital reported that he received 25 dead bodies which were the result of US aerial bombings. Other doctors and Iraqi police officers reported that the dead were all civilians, including children.
At least 14 other Iraqis were killed in US air strikes on a nearby village.
The US army stated that the air strikes conducted by US warplanes and helicopters killed 70 "terrorists" during the air strikes in Ramadi and surrounding locales, and also said that not one civilian was killed due to their use of precision weapons.
Another doctor at Ramadi General Hospital who was tending to the dead and wounded told reporters, "They are not terrorists. They were ordinary people who were bombed by airplanes."
Meanwhile, a delusional Mr. Bush told reporters during a recent meeting with the Bulgarian President, "The way forward [in Iraq] is clear. The political process will continue, with a constitution, if finally ratified. And then an election, coupled with a security plan that continues to train Iraqis so they do the fight." |
The previous paragraph in Mr Jamail's essay also deserves note, as it reflects on the policies and actions of the Bush administration in this part of the world :
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| A National Guard soldier who has been in Iraq for nearly a year writes me, "I needn't tell you...how messed up everything over here is. Regardless of the intentions of most soldiers to do a good job and do what's right, the organizational structure of our presence here makes it very difficult. The nature of the conflict--in terms of the insurgency, the attitude of our leadership, and the demands placed on soldiers because of numbers and resources-requires aggression where compassion and understanding are necessary. And this is against a background of profiteering by KBR and other contractors who are quite honestly raiding the American Treasury in the name of "providing services." |
There is a clear and ever-expanding link between the actions of the people currently in the US govt and the mayhem being brought upon both the Coalition soldiers stationed there and the large numbers of Iraqi people suffering as a result of those actions.
Dahr Jamail comes from The Great State of Alaska and is a reporter attached to The New Statesman. |
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The Hammer
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ullungdo 37.5 N, 130.9 E, altitude : 223 m
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
Just so I understand...
When insurgents kill civillians, it's our fault.
When we accidently kill civillians, it's our fault.
Just checking. |
You rule Pligganease! Keep sending the great posts! |
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