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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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 Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:08 am Post subject: |
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Doesn't Islam advocate killing all infidels?
Wasn't Muhammed a pedophile?
Didn't he also condone rape?
Hmmmmmm, then again, how many wives can a Muslim male have? Any conditions or stipulations such as large amounts of wealth e.g.? Maybe i'll give it a closer loking into. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
Doesn't Islam advocate killing all infidels?
Wasn't Muhammed a pedophile?
Didn't he also condone rape?
Hmmmmmm, then again, how many wives can a Muslim male have? Any conditions or stipulations such as large amounts of wealth e.g.? Maybe i'll give it a closer loking into. |
And those would be the vulgar reasons against Islam...the ones with which we shouldn't concern ourselves. Islam doesn't advocate killing all infidels...Muhammed was not a pedophile nor did he condone rape...and show me how many wives the average Muslim has today. 1.001, I'd wager, with that extra thousandth wife belonging to somebody rich and powerful. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Muhammed was not a pedophile |
He was a 50 something man who had sex with a 9 year old girl. Make up your own mind
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| nor did he condone rape |
He did condone the rape of slave girls captured in battle. There is a hadith to testify to this, and it is used today to justify the rape of infidel women in Sudan. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:42 am Post subject: ... |
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To bring this back on topic, our once-elite poster, Gollum, was talking a lot about "robed people" hanging out in parts of Itaewon. He seemed to think something was up.
Is something up?
BigV, in Gollum/Derrek's absence, I offer you the floor to blubber something about how Koreans will soon be up their knee-socks in Islam.
A final quote from the hadith might add a somber element to the occasion. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| And I offer you the floor to attempt, for once, something resembling a cogent argument. I won't hold my breath. Funny how you are now using the word 'Hadith'. I doubt you had even heard of such a thing until I had mentioned them, such is your ignorance of Islam. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:54 am Post subject: ... |
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Hmmm... A cogent argument.
Your burbling on and on about Hadith, Dhimmitude, and what-not is an ad nauseum attempt to characterize a diverse religion of millions as you see fit.
Your portrayal of Mohammed as a pedophiliac yak-herder goes a step beyond that into what Kuros describes as vulgarity.
I very politely called you out on this once, asking how you would characterize your own characterizations:
a)neutral
b)provocative
c)insulting
I don't believe you ever answered that one. Of course, you burble about Islam on so many threads simultaneously that it's hard to keep track of them all.
Now, is all your burbling "hate speech"? I don't really think so. As such, you are free to burble. However, I would describe your comments as bigoted.
But, when you call for an "honest discussion" of Islam, I don't see your burble about Hadith, Dhimmitude, and yak-herding pedophiles as a part of it. It makes me wonder what you would envision as honest discussion.
To be honest, I wasn't specifically familiar with the terms Hadith and Dhimmitude. I was familiar with the concepts, though, as they relate to Shariah law. I don't see how it reveals my ignorance.
On the other hand, I have/have had Muslim friends as well as students. Some had made pilgrimages to Mecca. None of them ate pork. At least one had lived in the west and enjoyed the experience. None of them ever mentioned Hadith, Dhimmitude, or Sharia law. In fact, they didn't really discuss religion unless I brought it up. Aside from their dress, they were basically like anyone else. They had jobs and families and lived their lives. The majorty of Christians behave in a similar way.
I can scarcely imagine how it would be possible for you, wailing on about your cookie-cutter interpretation of this religion of millions, to sit down with, let alone befriend a Muslim. Absolutely not with infantile aspersions to child molestation and livestock.
You also needed someone to delineate for you where in the Muslim world dress codes were mandatory as opposed to voluntary.
Go on and talk about ignorance. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Your portrayal of Mohammed as a pedophiliac yak-herder goes a step beyond that into what Kuros describes as vulgarity. |
I think it's pretty vulgar for a man of 50 something to have sex with a child, but never mind. You think it's vulgar to bring this up. I think that says a lot. By the way, I never mentioned yaks.
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| I very politely called you out on this once, asking how you would characterize your own characterizations: |
If you cannot see how absurd it is for me to answer such a nonsensical question with three pre chosen answers by yourself, then you are more stupid than I thought.
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| But, when you call for an "honest discussion" of Islam, I don't see your burble about Hadith, Dhimmitude, and yak-herding pedophiles as a part of it. |
No, because your 'honest' discussion of Islam seeks to whitewash all the nasty elements of this religion, which would undermine your multiculturalist ethos. I made the assertion that Islam is an intolerant religion. To support this position, I point to the institutions of the Shariah and the Dhimma, which are intrinsic to Islam, but you cannot refute this evidence so you ignore it.
I have a question for you. Is there anything I have written that you disagree with? And I mean specifically, not some vague charge of 'Islamophobia'. You rarely dispute any points I make because you haven't the intellectual capacity to do so.
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| None of them ever mentioned Hadith, Dhimmitude, or Sharia law. |
What were there views on the subject of Sharia Law and Dhimmitude. Did they support such discriminatory institutions?
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| I can scarcely imagine how it would be possible for you, wailing on about your cookie-cutter interpretation of this religion of millions, to sit down with, let alone befriend a Muslim. |
I wouldn't expect your tiny mind to be able to comprehend such complexities but I do know many muslims.Nothing you have written refutes my assertion that Islam is incompatible with democracy and basic freedoms, and that it is a largely intolerant faith prone to violence and extremism. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:43 am Post subject: ... |
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Your portrayal of Mohammed as a pedophiliac yak-herder goes a step beyond that into what Kuros describes as vulgarity.
I think it's pretty vulgar for a man of 50 something to have sex with a child, but never mind. You think it's vulgar to bring this up. I think that says a lot. By the way, I never mentioned yaks. |
Hey, I try to be "objective" on this board. I understand that it doesn't always happen. I'm not and I admit it. However, there are people, specifically you and Gopher, who have a hard time understanding th difference between your opinion and any kind of "fact" that proves anything. You, HELLO, are dealing in opinions.
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I very politely called you out on this once, asking how you would characterize your own characterizations:
If you cannot see how absurd it is for me to answer such a nonsensical question with three pre chosen answers by yourself, then you are more stupid than I thought. |
And who AM I? Feel free to add a few more choices. Mind you, it took 3-4 preface questions to bring us to your point.
At this point, I feel safe in asking you a single question:
Are your posts insulting to Islam or not?
That could be answered with a bunch of baby talk, or it could be answered with a simple YES or NO.
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But, when you call for an "honest discussion" of Islam, I don't see your burble about Hadith, Dhimmitude, and yak-herding pedophiles as a part of it.
No, because your 'honest' discussion of Islam seeks to whitewash all the nasty elements of this religion, which would undermine your multiculturalist ethos. I made the assertion that Islam is an intolerant religion. To support this position, I point to the institutions of the Shariah and the Dhimma, which are intrinsic to Islam, but you cannot refute this evidence so you ignore it. |
Yes, me me me me me...
My intentions. My ethos. This is your Gopher-side speaking.
You're psychoanalyzing me in the same way you treat Islam.
Islam is an intolerant religion.
Christianity is an intolerant religion.
Some "pious" Buddhists climb mountains to wash themselves in monks' footbaths and be hit with a stick.
I'm an atheist, too.
But most Christians I know are not militant. Ofcourse, I have a far more vast experience with them. But, my experience with Muslims reflects the same.
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| I have a question for you. Is there anything I have written that you disagree with? And I mean specifically, not some vague charge of 'Islamophobia'. You rarely dispute any points I make because you haven't the intellectual capacity to do so. |
Yes, you stated once upon a time that the majority of Muslims wanted to "see the west fail". Something to that effect.
And, like such an indidual as Kuros states, I disagree with your ad nauseum pinning a religion of millions to your convenient little, dumbed-down, ignorant, vulgar view of Islam.
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None of them ever mentioned Hadith, Dhimmitude, or Sharia law.
What were there views on the subject of Sharia Law and Dhimmitude. Did they support such discriminatory institutions? |
I didn't ask them. Women chose to clothe themselves as a sign of modesty. They didn't see it as discrimination.
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I can scarcely imagine how it would be possible for you, wailing on about your cookie-cutter interpretation of this religion of millions, to sit down with, let alone befriend a Muslim.
I wouldn't expect your tiny mind to be able to comprehend such complexities but I do know many muslims.Nothing you have written refutes my assertion that Islam is incompatible with democracy and basic freedoms, and that it is a largely intolerant faith prone to violence and extremism. |
Well, that's a shame, Big V. To begin with, there are the millions of Muslims not emigrating to Europe who live in places like Pakistan and Thailand who deserve their freedom of religion that are happy with their lives as they are.
And I don't care if they raise yaks, vicunas, or howler monkeys. They deserve to be left out of your infantile characterization of a religion of millions.
And you did ask if there was anything I disagreed with, right? To be quite specific, I would disagree with your INFANTILE characterization of Islam.
Is that clear?
You can address the "complexities" I've missed while you explain how your experience of Muslims has led you to this game of "pin the tail on the donkey" that you're playing. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| You, HELLO, are dealing in opinions. |
Where? Give me an example please.
Actually, it is a FACT that Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old girl, and hardly any muslims dispute this.
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| Are your posts insulting to Islam or not? |
Yes, it is very insulting to muslims that someone would 'defame' their prophet by speaking the truth about his less than honourable life. However, what I care about is the truth, and not the delicate sensibilities of muslims.
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Islam is an intolerant religion.
Christianity is an intolerant religion.
Some "pious" Buddhists climb mountains to wash themselves in monks' footbaths and be hit with a stick. |
One of those religions is far more intolerant and prone to violence than the others, and there is very little evidence you can produce to the contrary.
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| Yes, you stated once upon a time that the majority of Muslims wanted to "see the west fail". |
No, I stated that the majority of muslims in the UK wanted to see the 'peaceful' overthrow of liberal democracy and its replacement with Shariah. This was from an opinion poll in the Telegraph.
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| Women chose to clothe themselves as a sign of modesty. They didn't see it as discrimination. |
Actually, I was not specifically referring to women's rights under Shariah, although of course, they are appalling. I was referring to the second class status of religious minorities as mandated in Islamic Law.
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| To begin with, there are the millions of Muslims not emigrating to Europe who live in places like Pakistan and Thailand who deserve their freedom of religion that are happy with their lives as they are. |
Deserve their freedom of religion? What are you talking about? I hope you're referring to the Christian minority in Pakistan who certainly do not have the freedom that muslims enjoy in the West.
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| To be quite specific, I would disagree with your INFANTILE characterization of Islam. |
I'm afraid that's not specific, but a childish characture of what I have posted. If you can refute any specific posts I have made, then please try, although you have demonstrated time and time again to be incapable of this. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:12 am Post subject: ... |
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You, HELLO, are dealing in opinions.
Where? Give me an example please. |
All Muslims follow the Hadith. You want an "honest discussion" of Islam. The majority of Muslims fall into your cookie-cutter. They don't.
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Actually, it is a FACT that Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old girl, and hardly any muslims dispute this. |
Actually, Jesus spent time with Mary Magdalene, a hooker if you will. People sacrificed their sons. They followed very strict rules about how best to sacrifice their cattle According to some of them, God implanted dinosaur bones in our soil as a test of faith.
It is A FACT? As if you can prove jack shit, who cares? Is pedophelia a major tenet of Islam? Or are you just burbling?
Is that how your "honest discussion" of Islam will begin? Mohammed was a pedophile?
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Are your posts insulting to Islam or not?
Yes, it is very insulting to muslims that someone would 'defame' their prophet by speaking the truth about his less than honourable life. However, what I care about is the truth, and not the delicate sensibilities of muslims. |
So you want them to acknowledge that their prophet was a pedophile?
And they'll say, "OH WOW BIGVERNE, YOU'RE RIGHT!".
Then they'll all become atheists like you?
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Islam is an intolerant religion.
Christianity is an intolerant religion.
Some "pious" Buddhists climb mountains to wash themselves in monks' footbaths and be hit with a stick.
One of those religions is far more intolerant and prone to violence than the others, and there is very little evidence you can produce to the contrary. |
Well, SHERLOCK, if they encounter the likes of you, what reason do they have to be any other way?
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Yes, you stated once upon a time that the majority of Muslims wanted to "see the west fail".
No, I stated that the majority of muslims in the UK wanted to see the 'peaceful' overthrow of liberal democracy and its replacement with Shariah. This was from an opinion poll in the Telegraph. |
No. Before your telegraph BS. Go find it. You wrote it.
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Women chose to clothe themselves as a sign of modesty. They didn't see it as discrimination.
Actually, I was not specifically referring to women's rights under Shariah, although of course, they are appalling. I was referring to the second class status of religious minorities as mandated in Islamic Law. |
You had no idea until Bucheon Bum told you where dress codes were mandatory.
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To begin with, there are the millions of Muslims not emigrating to Europe who live in places like Pakistan and Thailand who deserve their freedom of religion that are happy with their lives as they are.
Deserve their freedom of religion? What are you talking about? I hope you're referring to the Christian minority in Pakistan who certainly do not have the freedom that muslims enjoy in the West. |
WHOA! Back off! I hope youare not now putting a religion of millions into your Pakistan cookiee-cutter to make a false generalization about them all, are you?
You want people to respond to the same BURBLE you post 1000 times to PROVE NOTHING except that you're a bigot?
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To be quite specific, I would disagree with your INFANTILE characterization of Islam.
I'm afraid that's not specific, but a childish characture of what I have posted. If you can refute any specific posts I have made, then please try, although you have demonstrated time and time again to be incapable of this. |
Well BigV, I can't refute much of any of your posts because they're OPINIONS.
Moreover, they're OPINIONS based on BIGOTRY.
You could not for a moment suppose that you could sit down with a member of the Muslim faith and spout off your non-issues in hopes of an "honest discussion" of Islam.
That is my point, and please don't mind if I periodically make fun of your pretence, Captain Hook.
Arrgh! |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| All Muslims follow the Hadith. |
But, you flaming imbecile, I never stated that, did I? However, most muslims do, and the Hadith compiled by Bukhari, widely acknowledged as the most reliable, states that Mohammed consumated his marriage with a girl of 9.
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| Actually, Jesus spent time with Mary Magdalene, a hooker if you will. |
Yes, he did. And? That also is acknowledged as a fact by most Christians and is also quite instructive of the difference between Jesus and Mohammed.
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| Is pedophelia a major tenet of Islam? Or are you just burbling? Is that how your "honest discussion" of Islam will begin? Mohammed was a pedophile? |
You've totally missed the point, and the point is this. It is extremely worrying that Mohammed is such a revered figure in the Islamic world, and that his behaviour is beyond reproach, because such behaviour has a direct impact upon the lives of women and minorities today. Does such suffering concern you, or would it get in the way of your PC niceities?
In fact, Mohammed's marriage to his child bride prompted the Ayatollah Khomenei to lower the age of marriage in Iran from 18 to 9, causing untold misery for countless little girls. So, opening Mohammed's life up to scrutiny is important, because it may help us end some of the backward practices going on in the muslim world today.
Moreover, if we are to understand Jihadist violence today, we must again look at the legacy of this man, for many Islamic terrorists use his example as justification for their actions today. Such ideologies cannot be challenged if apologists like yourself start accusing people of 'insulting' Islam.
His legacy has very serious implications for the treatment of women and minorities, and the problem of Islamic violence today.
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| Well, SHERLOCK, if they encounter the likes of you, what reason do they have to be any other way? |
I never knew I was so powerful. So, the myriad of muslim terror organisations commit such acts of violence not because they are inspired by the ideology of Jihad or the example of the prophet, but because infidels like me say nasty things about their Mohammed. Does you servile appeasement go so far that you will allow Islamic Jihadists off the hook and blame me? You really are clutching at straws.
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| You had no idea until Bucheon Bum told you where dress codes were mandatory |
Actually, while dress codes are mandatory in a number of muslim states, there is intense pressure in most that women wear them. So, in effect, they are mandatory, even though they may not be in law.
Do you have any opinions on the second class status of women and religious minorities under Shariah Law?
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| WHOA! Back off! I hope youare not now putting a religion of millions into your Pakistan cookiee-cutter to make a false generalization about them all, are you? |
Hold on sonny. You brought up Pakistan and something about muslims having freedom of religion. I merely responded and said that it is Christians in Pakistan who are denied such freedom. Moreover, discrimination against non muslims is the rule, not the exception in muslim states, so a false generalisation it ain't.
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| Well BigV, I can't refute much of any of your posts because they're OPINIONS. |
No, they are not, and you have yet to prove otherwise.
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| You could not for a moment suppose that you could sit down with a member of the Muslim faith and spout off your non-issues in hopes of an "honest discussion" of Islam. |
You're quite right, although I do not see Shariah Law, Dhimmitude and the legacy of the prophet as 'non-issues'. However, the fact that I could probably not sit down and discuss such issues with practising muslims (and I have tried) is that when such issues are brought up rationality goes flying out the window. Speaking negatively of the prophet is verboten to most practising muslims, and that is half the problem. |
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in_seoul_2003
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by in_seoul_2003 on Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| in_seoul_2003 wrote: |
"He was a 50 something man who had sex with a 9 year old girl. Make up your own mind"
"Pedophilia" is a recent sexological classification which denotes highly specific points of behavioral emphasis. It is very much bound to its socio-cultural context and can rarely be applied retroactively.
I remember debating in a university class certain sexological concepts. Someone had mentioned Oscar Wilde as but one figure to whom we can point to emphasize the prevalence of homosexuality in art. To which I responded: "But gay is a relatively recent concept. If we're in the business of retroactive classification it would be more appropriate to call Wilde a gay "pedophile", not "gay"."
Concerning the prophet, he maintained a healthy 25 year relationship with an adult (15 years older---his first wife Khadija) female whose death shattered him. In fact, during the time of the prophet plural marriages were common in that area, but he remained singularly devoted to his wife until her death.
Big Verne,
Compile a list of the wives, their ages upon marriage, the circumstances surrounding the marriages (treaties, widowed, strategic alliances and so forth). Cite a definition of pedophilia (rely on the DSM, since it is largely a Western concept it seems best to rely on the standard for western psychiatry), and cite where in the Quran the prophets relationship with Aisha is mentioned (everyone knows that Hadith is not a reliable source of info, nor was it meant to be). Also, if your serious, it would be wise to cite Quranic info on marriage as connected with age and responsibility, the contradictory info on just how old she was (some authorities report 19 years old at the time of marriage) and Aisha's role after the death of the the prophet, and make your point.
Otherwise, your constant citing of pedophilia will come across as more personal than anything else and we all know upon what tangents people can go with that. |
The record of Muhammad's marriage to a 9 year old is well documented.
The girl was a gift to muhammad- his best friends daughter- given at the age of 6 to Muhammad as a present. Muhammad was good enough to wait until she was 9 before doing it to her, commendable.
If you think thats fine and dandy, for the role model of the worlds fastest growing religion, so be it. Maybe everything is just relative and meaningless after all. Why the concept of murder? its an entirely natural thing, lions kill antelopes don't they.
Get real. |
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in_seoul_2003
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by in_seoul_2003 on Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| She was anywhere from the age of 9 to 14. A lot of other hadiths reference her in a time where she wouldn't have been born yet if we are to take her age to be 9 at the time of marriage. |
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