|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Sliver
Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: The third dimension
|
 Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:46 am Post subject: |
 |
|
deessell wrote
| Quote: |
| Language is about communication. |
Right on. I think grammar like this is interesting but not something to be used to measure actual competency.
VanIslander wrote
| Quote: |
I say this ironically because I fully believe it's better to think in terms of better/worse rather than right/wrong.
|
...and because most linguists these days prefer to describe rather than prescribe the way people speak I agree.
rok_the-boat wrote
| Quote: |
| Sometimes, what they write is gramatically correct, but it makes no sense in the context - try explaining that to them! |
interesting as I feel the context of 'working on' is very different to 'working'. 'working on', to me, implies a sense of getting ready to start something, adding the emphatic adverbs gives the sentence a sarcastic air.
CaptainConjunction wrote
| Quote: |
My point is simply that when we get too hung up on the grammar in one sentence, we lose sight of the overall goal of studying a language - to be able to use that language fluently. So if the sentence may be grammatically correct but it's not used, I think it would be more valuable to teach the student the way we would say it.
|
I don't think any native speakers here are getting hung up on the grammar but I am tired as others are some others of some Koreans saying something is incorrect when it is not. As to this sentence not being used I generally agree with CC but it could be used, in my opinion, only in a specific circumstance as above. I doubt this circumstance was the case so as CC suggests 'teach the student the way we would say it'  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sliver wrote: |
interesting as I feel the context of 'working on' is very different to 'working'. 'working on', to me, implies a sense of getting ready to start something, adding the emphatic adverbs gives the sentence a sarcastic air.
|
*blink*
work on sth (IMPROVE) phrasal verb
to spend time repairing or improving something
The whole sense of using "work on" to suggest you're getting ready to do something is sarcastic (i.e. one is spending time preparing to start, not spending time actually doing it at all). But just because a couple of adverbs are added doesn't, to me, make it sarcastic. In particular I wouldn't expect it to be sarcasm where the thing being worked on is clearly ongoing, as here (cf. Have you got up yet? -I'm working on it!). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| There is something not right with the sentence and I think the problem is tautological. Take out working or studying as they bring the same meaning to the sentence. Essentially what ��hypnotist�� has done with his/her solution. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sliver
Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: The third dimension
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
hypnotist wrote
| Quote: |
| But just because a couple of adverbs are added doesn't, to me, make it sarcastic. |
Thought about this on the way home and your totally right.
I was just thinking in reference to 'something that we tend to put off' like studying where I would say this idiomatically, with correct intonation to counter the point CC made about this not being the way we speak.
Your examples show clearly where this type of expression is used.
That said, imagine stress on the adverbs, to see if you get my point:
A: Have you got up yet?
B: I'm working on it!
A: Have you got up yet?
B: I'm working really hard on it!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sliver
Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: The third dimension
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
To be done with grammar and this thread unless the OPs co-teacher responds further....
OFE wrote
| Quote: |
| There is something not right with the sentence |
I think we all agree with this. The original point was OP's Co-teacher said the sentence is gramatically incorrect. I think we all agree also that gramatically the sentence is okay. So we are left with this:
1.The sentence is gramatically acceptable.
2.It is a little odd. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ladyandthetramp
Joined: 21 Nov 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| CaptainConjunction wrote: |
I'm sure if most of us heard another native speaker say this, we'd feel there was something odd about it.
|
Well, the only thing I would find odd about it is why the native English speaker needed to study English really hard. Other than that, I wouldn't think twice about it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think the reason it sounds strange is because we use "on" when we're talking about a specific thing: "I'm working hard ON this math problem" or "I'm working hard ON this crossword puzzle", but we say "at" when we're talking about a more general thing: "I'm working hard AT my job" or "I'm working hard AT learning a new language".
Just my 20 won! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Veronica
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CaptainConjunction wrote: |
My point is simply that when we get too hung up on the grammar in one sentence, we lose sight of the overall goal of studying a language - to be able to use that language fluently. So if the sentence may be grammatically correct but it's not used, I think it would be more valuable to teach the student the way we would say it.
So, if I were marking that particular paper, I would draw a big fat red line through it and write:
D |
My original point does state, I believe, that I know full well that is something that we do not say and is something we would never say. I was purely posing the question as to whether or not it was gramatically wrong, as the teacher who was marking the paper has poorer English than a lot of the students he is teaching, and I think was probably just more reluctant to agree to changing the mark as it would show his incompetence more than anything.
Marking it wrong would not be the right thing to do. Giving it a reduced mark might be, with an explanation, but, if the student then goes down the 'is it gramatically right' road, then really, you don't have a leg to stand on and you have to give the marks. Even more so now the university entrance system has changed and every test for 3 years of high school counts towards your chances of going to a decent university. they are going to fight for every point possible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| VanIslander wrote: |
The sentence is perfectly fine.
I would give half marks (if grading was necessary, which I think it shouldn't be) and indicate a simplier form (half marks because it's unlikely the Korean high school student would have written that sentence with full awareness of its grammatical form, except perhaps as an extended use by analogy).
deessell has a good point about communication being most important, but I couldn't just give a check mark to an obviously grammatically incorrect sentence unless the point of the answer was to test comprehension of content in a short story or the like.
Use the opportunity to indicate a simplier, hence better, choice. But to say the student's sentence is wrong is... well, wrong. I say this ironically because I fully believe it's better to think in terms of better/worse rather than right/wrong.
A benefit of working in a small hagwon is that many of them don't require test results, but instead report cards that allow summarized gradations of excellence/very good/good/poor in relevant skill areas. |
A half mark for a correct answer?? Surely you jest?? Or were you making a general comment about grading incorrect answers? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey, this question looks familiar.
Drop the unnecessary info. The bare sentence would be:
I'm working on studying.
Does that sound grammatically correct? Sure, it sounds dumb, but is it grammatically correct? Seems alright to me. Studying is a gerund here, and replacing studying with any other noun phrase works fine.
I'm working on a puzzle.
I'm working on some pizza.
I'm working on it.
I'm working on kicking your teeth in.
"Work on" and "work at" have a synonymous meaning, so they're interchangeable.
Taking the preposition out and deciding whether that's acceptable or not is puzzling me, though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Um, sorry, but this is a fairly normal sentence. Don't know why people are saying "we" don't speak that way. Maybe not where you are from, eh? It's kind of like, "I will have been living in Korea for 4 years next June." The need to use it comes up pretty rarely, but to say we don't say it doesn't make sense.
I'm working hard on my English.
I'm working hard on my project.
I'm working hard on studying Korean.
Not strange, not bizarre, just not often used. Also, grammar *is* important, but more so in written text where there is no emotion, stress, rhythm, etc. English is a stress-timed language, so *how* we say something is important. More so than in Korean, for example. So, written English (I believe we are discussing a written answer?) requires a higher degree of accuracy. Don't ya think? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| A half mark for a correct answer?? Surely you jest?? Or were you making a general comment about grading incorrect answers? |
Did you read my post? There are simplier and better sentences for them to use. I teach with the distinction between "good", "okay" and "not good". I'd characterize the sentence as "okay", fine but not great pedagogically because the grammar is more complex than their level of education so they are lucky with it, hence the half marks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| VanIslander wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| A half mark for a correct answer?? Surely you jest?? Or were you making a general comment about grading incorrect answers? |
Did you read my post? There are simplier and better sentences for them to use. I teach with the distinction between "good", "okay" and "not good". I'd characterize the sentence as "okay", fine but not great pedagogically because the grammar is more complex than their level of education so they are lucky with it, hence the half marks. |
I read your post and I am still agog. How can correct be any more correct??? Pedagogically???? A student doesn't do anything pedagogically. Pedagogy is *teaching.* You do. To wit:
Pronunciation: 'pe-d&-"gO-jE also -"gä-, esp British -"gä-gE
Function: noun
: the art, science, or profession of teaching; especially : EDUCATION 2
Because of the STYLE??? Jesus, please stop grading that way. Punishing a student for CORRECT writing... Especially an EFL student!!! Will wonders never cease. I have never met a teacher that grades off for correct answers they just don't like. That *is* bad pedagogy. You are assuming thy were "lucky" to give a grammatically correct answer? Even if so, that means the student is learning, hypothesizing, trying and getting it right... and you are punishing that process as opposed to giving positive reinforcement *for the proper use of language*!! I am stunned.
Now, before I just blow this up into a bigger mess, what, exactly, do you grade this way and what are the parameters? Is this on grammar papers? Regular tests, in creative writing??? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sliver wrote: |
| Quote: |
I say this ironically because I fully believe it's better to think in terms of better/worse rather than right/wrong.
|
...and because most linguists these days prefer to describe rather than prescribe the way people speak I agree. |
I disagree with this unless by better/worse you actually are intending more common/less common, archaic/current, wordy/pithy.... but I sincerely hope you are not telling your students that this correctly applied language is better or worse than that correctly applied language.
To reinforce this a bit for clarity, if I tell my students I am grading for *style*, particularly with a certain target, say, succinctness or clarity, then fine, grade for style. But I don't see why you would ever grade off for correct usage for any other reason. They are acquiring the language, not masters of it already. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sliver
Joined: 04 May 2003
Location: The third dimension
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
EFL trainer wrote
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Sliver wrote:
| Quote: |
I say this ironically because I fully believe it's better to think in terms of better/worse rather than right/wrong. |
...and because most linguists these days prefer to describe rather than prescribe the way people speak I agree. |
I disagree with this unless by better/worse you actually are intending more common/less common, archaic/current, wordy/pithy.... but I sincerely hope you are not telling your students that this correctly applied language is better or worse than that correctly applied language |
Firstly with regards to why I mentioned 'linguists', I wasn't refering to ESL teaching at all but rather that, in terms of competency, related to the globalisation of English, most linguists don't think in terms of absolutes. That said they don't think in terms of better or worse either so I should have been more exact in my point.
With regards to saying something is better or worse one thing I have said to a student, and I sure many have, not related to grading a test, is ; "That is okay if you say it like that but if you say it like this it is probably better". That is related to what you said about 'more common/less common, archaic/current, wordy/pithy' but sometimes Korean's produced speech, relating to situational or cultural pragmatics, in my opinion has levels of better and worse discourse styles.
I do use terms, in this situation, like 'better' and 'worse' avoiding terms like 'right' and 'wrong' so as to not squash their confidence and maintain postive reinforcement.
Last edited by Sliver on Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
