Korean Job Discussion Forums

[JacktheCat]

I've got my high schoolers well trained now. They know I will NOT accept an answer from them unless it is a correctly pronounced full English sentence. No fishE, no coPPee, no deskU.

And NO Konglish either.

They have learned to rattle off the answer quickly with fairly decent pronunciation, so that I will move on to the next victim.

[VanIslander]

[ajuma]

[EFLtrainer]

[Kimchieluver]

I agree with EFLtrainer.

[ajuma]

Unfortunatly, I have to agree with EFLtrainer. When some (probably all!) students get to middle and high school, they don't want to be embarassed by using "good" English, so they deliberately use Konglish...

On the subject of hagwons, I was recently talking to a Korean friend about the system, and she agreed that it needs to be changed BY THE PARENTS. The parents are paying good money to ensure that their children speak English well, but oftentimes it doesn't happen. I hope that the parents finally get sick and tired of the way that their kids are being shortchanged and demand the services that they are paying for.

PLEASE NOTE!!! I am NOT blaming the teachers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's the whole bleeping hagwon system, where money rules and education comes last. I was very fortunate to work in a hagwon (well, 1 out of the 3!) where the education aspect was the most important part for my director. The director knew that if the kids actually LEARNED something, word would get around and her hagwon would grow...and it did!!

[forgesteel]

manlyboy wrote:
>By all means, take the time to correct POOR pronunciation, but if the student is perfectly comprehensible, there are more important things to work on.

I agree. Prosody (rhthym, stress, intonation, melody, etc.)
is a lot more important than mere pronunciation.

The pronunciation variance can be huge and it won't matter a whit, so long as you have the proper rhythm, intonation, melody, etc.

That said, orange-EE et. al. is bad, and ought to be corrected. There is one syllable in Sprite (the soda), but Koreans think there are 5?! Seu-peu-ra-ee-teu?!

Cheers,

[EFLtrainer]

[some waygug-in]

It seems to me that Koreans just don't think correct pronunciation is important.
At one hagwan I worked at , they offered a special pronunciation class which people could attend for free if they were registered in a regular converstation class.

People showed up for the first class........ and then the second class 2 students came......third class nobody came........class was cancelled.

I also have a Korean friend who studied very hard and who progressed rapidly. He has studied correct pronunciation as part of his university program and he knows how to do it right..........he just doesn't.

He says it's just too much work to pronounce "fish" with the correct "f"
when he can just say "pishy"and everyone understands him anyway.


I am not saying I disagree with you, I am just saying that it's an uphill battle.

[Qinella]

[EFLtrainer]

some wayguk-in and Qinella,

Yeah, I hear what you are saying,and you know your students better than I do, but a couple things:

- Their total time of exposure is very limited, which will limit their ability to internalize, i.e., acquire the corrected pronunciations.

- Reinforcing this is exposure to the hangulized pronunciations they hear every day all around them. If you believe Krashen, exposure is paramount. Their primary exposure is to the incorrect forms which means they are more likely to be perseverative. I would encourageyou to try to look at their behaviors in thislight and see if you still thinkitis willfull. Learning is not the same as acquiring, after all. If you honestly believe they are really not making the effort, then consider the next point.

- Another issue is, where will they be most likely to actually *use* English, if at all? In Korea. With Koreans. The only Ebglish they likely use outside of class is Konglish! The "proper" Konglish is the one they speak with each other, not English! So, they are using and applying English in the way their situation, culture and society allow it. I'm not sure we can judge this harshly. It ties into the issue of accent, no?

- Teaching phonics: First, I would encourage a teaching of phonics that is not separated from the course content. In other words, a phonis class would bea wasteof time to me as the combinations found in actualy language are not exactly what we are taught as "phonics." Separating the two not only teaches inauthentic pronunciation, but decontextualizes it. I don't see the need or use in doing this. Many may well disagree with me, but I see no reason whatsoever to not teach your phonics within the same context as your lessons and draw the lesson directly from the source material. (You are probably already doing this, so the comment is aimed more at those who are new to this stuff or who have not been required to teach pronunciation.)

- Error correction: I would disagree with several of the techniques described in this thread. There is a general agreement that global and/or targeted lessons are more effective than direct correction. And I would never use a chart on the wall trackingwho ismaking the most errors!! This is nothing more than shaming the students into conformity. How very Korean! (Shame is a motivator, but not sure it belongs in an English classroom.) Seriously, noticing a perseverative error the class in general is making and designing a class lesson on it is likely to get better results. Also, simply targeting your content/materials to proovide practice on the targeted error would likely do more good than direct error correction.

That said, I think games are a useful time and context for setting that requirement at a very high level. Once they catch on that a correct answer must include the correct sounds as well, you just might get a good series of good efforts.

Would love to hear from others on this issue.

[EFLtrainer]

[Qinella]

Hey EFLTrainer. I always enjoy reading your posts. I must say that I've never heard the word "perserverative" before, and I'm still doubtful as to whether it's an authentic word.

You are right that students may never use English outside the Konglish context, but that leads me to another point - why don't they practice with each other? My few students who are at a conversational level say they and their friends never speak English to each other outside of the class. I was stunned when I heard that. Wouldn't teenagers want to be able to speak in public with no one being able to understand what they say? Seems like that would be cool.

[jazblanc77]

Have you ever worked in a hogwan? If you had, you would know that it is a constant battle to get them to speak properly from day to day. I can have my kids doing their phonics perfectly one day and then they go back to school and their underqualified school teachers beat their konglishee version back into them. Who do you think is going to win? My assessment doesn't count towards their longterm placement in the school system and, eventually, to getting into a better university and occupation... the school teachers' assessments do. Who do you think the kids should, and do, listen to?

[EFLtrainer]