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jazblanc77
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| swade wrote: |
| For some strange reason I think that hagwon teachers should take offense to this post. Why should it be suggested that we would allow our students to continuously mispronounce words? I think that we as educators want the same things for our students; it really doesn��t matter if we teach at a hagwon, public school or college. |
It is offensive but, perched from ontop of the throne of a college/university appointment, I can see how it would seem that we of the commons are to blame.  |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Oh I teach them. "No. Not fishee. It's fish." "Yes, teacher, FISH." Next time around "fishee." "Okay we covered this. It's FISH." "Yes, teacher. FISH." Next time around "fishee".
So yes, we can teach them. And we do. But frankly they just don't care. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Oh I teach them. "No. Not fishee. It's fish." "Yes, teacher, FISH." Next time around "fishee." "Okay we covered this. It's FISH." "Yes, teacher. FISH." Next time around "fishee".
So yes, we can teach them. And we do. But frankly they just don't care. |
Well, if that's how you're teachin' 'em...  |
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ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:26 am Post subject: |
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EFLtrainer wrote:
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| And I would never use a chart on the wall trackingwho ismaking the most errors!! This is nothing more than shaming the students into conformity. How very Korean! (Shame is a motivator, but not sure it belongs in an English classroom.) |
It wasn't used to SHAME them...just to remind them! And actually, it was fun! The kids could see their progress (fewer lines) and were so proud of themselves when they managed to get NO lines. I praised the heck out of them for every baby step they took. I also took part in the "shameful" game by writing MY name on the board. If I spoke Korean (easy to do, even though my level is REALLY low), I had to put a line under MY name. They delighted in saying "Teacher, you spoke Korean!!"
| jazblanc77 wrote: |
| swade wrote: |
| For some strange reason I think that hagwon teachers should take offense to this post. Why should it be suggested that we would allow our students to continuously mispronounce words? I think that we as educators want the same things for our students; it really doesn��t matter if we teach at a hagwon, public school or college. |
It is offensive but, perched from ontop of the throne of a college/university appointment, I can see how it would seem that we of the commons are to blame. |
Ah! But I DID put in my time as a hagwon teacher...and I was pretty darned good at it! Who WOULDN'T change a 30 hour a work week for a 20 hour one....with more vacation time and more pay???
I wrote the OP because, while working on pronunciation is second nature for some of us, many people who come here for the first time DON'T realize that it's important...and don't correct the basic mistakes.
Korean kids are nothing if not flexible. Way-gook teacher wants them to say "fish" then they will say "fish". Korean teacher wants them to say "pishy", then they will say "pishy". X teacher doesn't care: They'll take the easy way every time. I know it's discouraging, but if they DO know the difference and CAN pronounce words properly, it will probably (hopefully!) stay with them for when they really need to use it...such as when they talk to a forigner.
I've read that by the time a person is a teenager, their palates have "solidified", making it more difficult for them to make new sounds. When they are children, the palate is still soft, which allows more flexibility as to which sounds can be produced...so teaching correct pronunciation when they are young is a MUST...even though they may not always use it. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:33 am Post subject: |
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I've read all the replies and could post a "war and peace" reply. won't.
My only comment is tosay two thumbs up , kudos and all, to the two people that replied and stated it is much more important to teach "communication" than pronounciation, especially prosody. Too often we love pronounciation , teaching it, because it seems to justify our jobs, give us an ego boost and solidify our own weak egos. Let's repeat and fill some time...repeating words is not ENGLISH!!!!!!!!!!..It is power and a time filler....sure, Koreans have poor pronounciation but hey, let's not become French! Lived there many years and love everything about France but the only thing I detest is how they scorn others who can't pronounce everything perfectly.....they'll break into you mid sentence, speaking baby English because they can't stand your near perfect French, not pronounced formidable....
EFL trainer -- great comment. Until we get the kids/adults talking to each other in English, first in class then outside, we've lost the battle......
| Quote: |
| I've read that by the time a person is a teenager, their palates have "solidified", making it more difficult for them to make new sounds. When they are children, the palate is still soft, which allows more flexibility as to which sounds can be produced...so teaching correct pronunciation when they are young is a MUST...even though they may not always use it. |
One comment....is this true? I'm laughing but are there any ornio....anyways, ear,nose throat doctors around who can verify this...or maybe pediatricians? I really think this one is an infant "urban" myth my dear......kids pronounciation adapts quicker for other more mundane reasons......they try!!
DD
"philosopher is thought idling" - Wittgenstein..... "thought is philosophy sleeping..." DD |
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inkoreafornow
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Location: Gyeonggido
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| I like to revue phonics by using tongue twisters. Try getting your kids to say something like, "Fire fighters fight fires!", "Five people fought four people for fun last Friday," or "There are zero zebras in the zoo." and then just get them to say it faster and faster and faster. Use a stopwatch, make it a relay race, and have some fun with this. It is amazing how much better their pronunciation gets. |
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muggie2dammit
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Location: Ilsan, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
- Their total time of exposure is very limited, which will limit their ability to internalize, i.e., acquire the corrected pronunciations.
- Reinforcing this is exposure to the hangulized pronunciations they hear every day all around them. If you believe Krashen, exposure is paramount. Their primary exposure is to the incorrect forms which means they are more likely to be perseverative. I would encourageyou to try to look at their behaviors in thislight and see if you still thinkitis willfull. Learning is not the same as acquiring, after all. If you honestly believe they are really not making the effort, then consider the next point.
- Teaching phonics: First, I would encourage a teaching of phonics that is not separated from the course content. In other words, a phonis class would bea wasteof time to me as the combinations found in actualy language are not exactly what we are taught as "phonics." Separating the two not only teaches inauthentic pronunciation, but decontextualizes it. I don't see the need or use in doing this. Many may well disagree with me, but I see no reason whatsoever to not teach your phonics within the same context as your lessons and draw the lesson directly from the source material. (You are probably already doing this, so the comment is aimed more at those who are new to this stuff or who have not been required to teach pronunciation.)
- Error correction: I would disagree with several of the techniques described in this thread. There is a general agreement that global and/or targeted lessons are more effective than direct correction. Seriously, noticing a perseverative error the class in general is making and designing a class lesson on it is likely to get better results. Also, simply targeting your content/materials to proovide practice on the targeted error would likely do more good than direct error correction.
Would love to hear from others on this issue. |
Personally, while I think that Krashen makes some good points, I don't quite agree with all his ideas. For example, while meaningful interaction and focus on the content is the aim, in order to get to the state where you can do that _and_ follow the grammatical rules, you need to learn and practise the use of the rules until such a time as they become natural. At that point you can concentrate on the content, and the grammatical structure can largely take care of itself. And early on, decontextualised information may be more useful than contextualised, because it decreases the processing requirements if all they have to do is focus on the sounds without context.
I think it's also inaccurate to say that exposure to Koreans speaking Konglish is the only exposure that students get to English. All of my students listen to English music, and watch TV or movies in English every week. Some spend time every night of the week doing this. My students can pick up most Konglish pronunciations, and be clear about the difference between Konglish and English pronunciuations. If they use Konglish outside the classroom, okay, as long as they use English pronunciations in class. It's common for people learning a second language to have two different modes of speech - one for class, and one for friends and family.
As for error correction, my students usually manage to correct themselves, because they can tell what the sounds should be, even if sometimes they slip. Sometimes they are corrected by classmates - I discourage this because I would prefer that the students learn to correct themselves, and the students are happier to be able to do it themselves. The end result is that I have classes that can differentiate between English and Konglish pronunciations for most words.
One of the best ways I've found to highlight the difference between the two in a way that forces them to confront the difference is by using poems and nursery rhymes. They can hear them scan relatively well in English, but none of them scan if pronounced in Konglish. It lets them confront their own pronunciation, and tighten it up. And they're fun to say and use - the class can have a fun part where they can practise what they've learned, and repetition takes place in a fun way.
Muggie2 |
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forgesteel
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: pronunciation exceptions |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
Perseverative. I means repetetive. I may be mis-using it here, but don't think so. Thanks for the comment, btw.
I don't mean to imply that the situation is simple or that the reasons are not many, but it is the reality. One, English ismore complex in it's sounds, the inability to decode reading because of the quagmire that is spelling doen't help. For example, every time you read Korean you are reinforcing what you are sure about. Not the same for EFL students. At least, not nearly as efficiently.
As for why they don't speak English together, there is their basic shyness, their basic aversion to errors and you are right about the social consequences of being said to be showing off or making those errors.
Add in all the social exposure to Konglish-ish pronunciation and the lack of practice... no surprise. We just have to work that much harder. As I've said, my director refuses to use correct pronunciation methods. |
Actually, Korean pronunciation is NOT quite as consistent as you imply: there are the strange double consonants, and when �� precedes certain letters ��,�� and others, they become aspirated equivalents (in this case, �� and ��). There are numerous exceptions in Korean pronunciation, but not nearly as many as English.
And like English, (and proably any other language), Korean also has strange rules that are difficult to learn regarding pronunciation in a 'natural' manner. E.g. No one in America enunciates every single word, every single syllable: it would make him sound like a dullard, a robot, or both. So, too in Korea, there are numerous vowel combinations and short cuts that are difficult to find in a BOOK, but are heard all the time in SPOKEN Korean.
Cheers, |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| inkoreafornow wrote: |
| I like to revue phonics by using tongue twisters. Try getting your kids to say something like, "Fire fighters fight fires!", "Five people fought four people for fun last Friday," or "There are zero zebras in the zoo." and then just get them to say it faster and faster and faster. Use a stopwatch, make it a relay race, and have some fun with this. It is amazing how much better their pronunciation gets. |
Ah, yes, contextualized. Using it in a real way. I'm not at the office, so don't have a link, but was searching the lit on this last week because my boss and co-worker refuse to believe me. Anyway, point being that pronunciation practice outside of context doesn't seem stick very well.
I'll try to find the info and remember to post it here. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Dammit Jim, I'm a teacher, not a linguist! 
Sorry to sound like the dullard that I am, but I am a bit confused by this:
One of the best ways I've found to highlight the difference between the two in a way that forces them to confront the difference is by using poems and nursery rhymes. They can hear them scan relatively well in English, but none of them scan if pronounced in Konglish. It lets them confront their own pronunciation, and tighten it up. And they're fun to say and use - the class can have a fun part where they can practise what they've learned, and repetition takes place in a fun way. [quote:muggie2dammit]
What do you mean by, "they can hear them scan relatively well in English"
more precisely, what do you mean by "scan"?
I agree with what you are saying, and I think it's a great idea. I just wanted to understand. Could you give a short example? (btw) |
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ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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ddeubel: OF COURSE communication is important!! The problem is that students with poor pronuciation DON'T communicate well!! How many of us have worked with Korean teachers with terrible pronunciation? All of us!! How would they do in a native English-speaking country? Could they communicate??? I don't care WHAT their TOEIC score was. If they can't be understood by a fair number of people in an English-speaking country, then how can we say that they are communicating (keeping in mind that OUR "Korean/Konglish" listening skills are far better than most people's in our home country)? We've all heard about and witnessed Korean English teachers being notably absent when a native English speaker arrives!
Saying that MOST of our students will only speak English with each other is a gross generalization. Many students are going abroad to study, travel and work. By NOT helping them learn correct pronunciation at an early age (see excerpt and link below), we're doing them a great disservice.
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FACTORS INFLUENCING PRONUNCIATION MASTERY
Research has contributed some important data on factors that can influence the learning and teaching of pronunciation skills. Celce-Murcia, Brinton, & Goodwin, (1996), Gillette (1994), Graham (1994) and Pennington (1994) discuss the following factors.
"Age." The debate over the impact of age on language acquisition and specifically pronunciation is varied. Some researchers argue that, after puberty, lateralization (the assigning of linguistic functions to the different brain hemispheres) is completed, and adults' ability to distinguish and produce native-like sounds is more limited. Others refer to the existence of sensitive periods when various aspects of language acquisition occur, or to adults' need to re-adjust existing neural networks to accommodate new sounds. Most researchers, however, agree that adults find pronunciation more difficult than children do and that they probably will not achieve native-like pronunciation. Yet experiences with language learning and the ability to self-monitor, which come with age, can offset these limitations to some degree. |
http://www.ericdigests.org/1999-4/adult.htm |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:00 am Post subject: |
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I think the OP has a point, but lots of hogwan teachers really are trying. What are those of us who have the lower levels to do when they are taught by Konglish teachers who will never use correct pronunciations themselves.
There is definitely a case to be made for starting younger. Today I was amazed how quickly my first-grade middle schoolers had picked up -all words. Call, tall, wall, etc., they were saying them way better than my high school students can pick them up. Whether this will revert back to cure, tur, were, etc. by the time they get to uni we'll have to see. |
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muggie2dammit
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Location: Ilsan, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
Dammit Jim, I'm a teacher, not a linguist!
What do you mean by, "they can hear them scan relatively well in English"
more precisely, what do you mean by "scan"?
I agree with what you are saying, and I think it's a great idea. I just wanted to understand. Could you give a short example? (btw) |
By scan I mean the poem/rhyme has a syllable structure that fits a rhythm. If the number of syllables isn't right, the rhythm doesn't work.
As an example, use Hickory Dikkory Dock. Say it in English. Get them to follow it, and use the English pronunciation. Then get them to count how many syllables in each line. When they're listening and repeating many of them can get the English sounds relatively well - get them to analyse the structure and they usually revert to Konglish. When they try to re-read it using Konglish pronunciations, the number of syllables on each line is too long, and it's a wildly inconsistent number between lines. So the rhythm doesn't work, it breaks the patterns, and they can hear the difference.
Almost any rhyme, poem, or song will show similar effects, just look through them first to make sure that the differences will be obvious.
Muggie2
P.S. I know it's not spelt Dikkory, but this webpage automatically edits any word that contains a 'non-acceptable' sequence of letters. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| muggie2dammit wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
Dammit Jim, I'm a teacher, not a linguist!
What do you mean by, "they can hear them scan relatively well in English"
more precisely, what do you mean by "scan"?
I agree with what you are saying, and I think it's a great idea. I just wanted to understand. Could you give a short example? (btw) |
By scan I mean the poem/rhyme has a syllable structure that fits a rhythm. If the number of syllables isn't right, the rhythm doesn't work.
As an example, use Hickory Dikkory Dock. Say it in English. Get them to follow it, and use the English pronunciation. Then get them to count how many syllables in each line. When they're listening and repeating many of them can get the English sounds relatively well - get them to analyse the structure and they usually revert to Konglish. When they try to re-read it using Konglish pronunciations, the number of syllables on each line is too long, and it's a wildly inconsistent number between lines. So the rhythm doesn't work, it breaks the patterns, and they can hear the difference.
Almost any rhyme, poem, or song will show similar effects, just look through them first to make sure that the differences will be obvious.
Muggie2
P.S. I know it's not spelt Dikkory, but this webpage automatically edits any word that contains a 'non-acceptable' sequence of letters. |
Great idea. Clapping the syllables, too, I assume. If not, should make it work even better. What age and ability levels has this worked with? |
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muggie2dammit
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Location: Ilsan, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Great idea. Clapping the syllables, too, I assume. If not, should make it work even better. What age and ability levels has this worked with? |
Actually, I clap to the rhythm, not the syllables, but you've got the idea.
So far, the Korean 7 years olds can get the basic idea and rhythm, if not the complete concept, and the 8 and 9 year olds can not only get the idea, but the concept - they then moved on to apply it to other songs and rhymes they'd learned in previous years.
Muggie2 |
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